PSSC Agenda & Notes of 12/11/06 Meeting Released

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PSSC Agenda & Notes of 12/11/06 Meeting Released

Post by LoBuck » Mon Dec 18, 2006 10:13 pm

The Agenda and Notes of the TRT's Public Safety Sub-Committee have been released. They can be downloaded from our Document Section or with this direct link: PSSC Agenda_Notes 2006_12_11.
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Post by Woodglue » Tue Dec 19, 2006 9:50 am

Pretty discouraging stuff Glenn! My conclusion is that the increasing popularity of the sport is bringing in more and more problem-children.

No good! :(
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Post by Grumpy Wookiee » Tue Dec 19, 2006 2:03 pm

The only bright side of that report was the slide that stated that arrests and DUI incidents dropped from last year over TG weekend.

Why would you want to bring a stripper pole to Olds? That just sounds...uncomfortable for the person stripping. :oops:

Does anyone know how the checkerd flags work? What are the actions that get rewarded? Leaving when asked? Changing a LEO's flat tire? Filling in trenches?

How can we further support the LEO's? There was something stated about volunteers? What if I attach a snow plow to the front of my truck and just clear the area? :lol:

I know that you can not have a weapon in the same compartment as the ammunition when transporting a weapon, and that the weapon needs to be in a locked container. I also know that a loaded magazine is viewed as a weapon under California state law. Can you have a loaded weapon in your trailer for personal protection?

All joking aside, I would like to know these questions (minus the strpper pole comment)
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Post by LoBuck » Tue Dec 19, 2006 2:12 pm

Woodglue wrote:Pretty discouraging stuff Glenn! My conclusion is that the increasing popularity of the sport is bringing in more and more problem-children.

No good! :(
We agree Mike. That is why the TRT PSSC is meeting. The BLM understands that this needs to be addressed now before it does get worse. In the mid-1990's they saw the same behavior developing and didn't act on it until 2000.

We can still get this turned around.
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Post by LoBuck » Tue Dec 19, 2006 2:20 pm

Grumpy Wookie wrote:Does anyone know how the checkerd flags work? What are the actions that get rewarded? Leaving when asked? Changing a LEO's flat tire? Filling in trenches?
Could be all of the above and more. The "Rewards" program has not been rolled out yet. It has been talked about for a while and this will get it moving.
Grumpy Wookie wrote:How can we further support the LEO's? There was something stated about volunteers?
The PSSC is looking at any possible options for volunteers to support Law enforcement. If there are more ideas out there, we'd like to hear them.
Grumpy Wookie wrote:Can you have a loaded weapon in your trailer for personal protection?
DO NOT take this as legal advice, but according to the discussion the PSSC had, a motor home/trailer/campsite would fall under the same laws as a personal residence.

A search should be done at http://www.findlaw.com for California Penal Codes 12025-Concealable Firearm & 12026.1-Laws for transporting.
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Post by LoBuck » Tue Dec 19, 2006 5:32 pm

Here is an excerpt of the notes. Please pay particular attention to the red print and even more to the bolded red print.
Review of significant safety concerns and law enforcement infractions
North Dunes -- Olds, Washes, Gecko, Drags
Inadequate, crowded spaces between rows at Olds prevent emergency access. Steps to keep rows open were taken beginning early afternoon.
Front 2 to 3 rows at Olds are where most problems occur. Thanksgiving weekend a rowdy group with a keg was contacted. Sand was kicked on officers and beer cans were thrown at them.
Activity reminiscent of Comp Hill pre-2002 is occurring. Trenches with gas; swing shovels at persons with stuck ATVs; Stripper Poles (not just at Olds, but found in Washes also).
Drags are getting larger with more spectators, requiring more resources.

South Dunes -- Dune buggy flats, Buttercup, Ogilby, Drags
Problem element is migrating to south dune areas. Increased problems at Buttercup Comp and Test Hill were noted during Halloween and Thanksgiving holidays. LEOs caution that if this activity continues to increase, the declaration of Unlawful Assembly could be needed to ensure public and officer safety at those locations.
At Buttercup Comp on Thanksgiving (Saturday) weekend while contacting a group, a tire on a LEOs vehicle was flattened by a person in the group breaking the valve stem off the wheel. “Good Sam” dune users assisted the LEO in changing the tire. This and along with other unruly behavior occurring that night nearly resulted in an Unlawful Assembly being declared.

All of ISDRA
More gang presence and gang-related activity is being noted by law enforcement.
Law enforcement is making early contact with potential problems in an attempt to prevent escalation.
Firearms are becoming more of an issue. Visitors need to become familiar with the laws related to possession of a weapon. California law is different than Arizona law. The Sub-Committee will work with law enforcement and user groups to get message out. There will be zero tolerance on loaded weapons violations.
“Off” Weekends and Resources
Visitation on “off” weekends is increasing and resources are being pushed to the limits. BLM has had to put additional EMS people on duty and adjusted shifts for LEOs.
BLM law enforcement is understaffed compared to authorized levels.
Discussed options on how to get open positions filled and funded as needed. BLM to write a single page “white sheet” to be presented to the TRT for recommendations. The white sheet is to provide details on law enforcement issues at the ISDRA; to include, past, present and future issues; summaries of reports of ISDRA tours by Bob Ratcliff, BLM Washington Division Chief for Recreation and Visitor Services and Chris Topik, House Interior Appropriations Staff Assistant.
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Post by alyshka » Tue Dec 19, 2006 9:55 pm

Why don't the LEOs hand out a rule sheet at the permit check points?

Every pay to enter Park(state parks, national parks, ect) I have been to, allways handed me a guide and rule sheet (rules like "don't pet the wild animals").
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Post by Woodglue » Wed Dec 20, 2006 11:55 am

alyshka wrote:Why don't the LEOs hand out a rule sheet at the permit check points?
The new ICSO maps [at the new kiosks] have a lot of rules on them, all the Dune Outreach literature does too. The October ASA newsletter had most of the rules, and all the new signs out there tout the major rules.

Not to mention the websites of ISCO, BLM, ASA, etc. Rules are posted everywhere, and readily available to those who look for them.

With passes being bought on-line, and at private vendors now, it's hard to "hand" a list of rules to the buyer. I know if you bought one at the SSSS, they gave a whole packet of info, including a rules sheet.
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Post by crash » Wed Dec 20, 2006 12:15 pm

REALLY...What are the big issues that should be focused on.

D&D (Drunk and Disorderly)

DUI

Trash

Wreckless Driving(?)

Everything else that I can think of really doesn't affect the general population.

Stripper poles in truck beds are not REALLY common.

No helmet hurts the rider more than anyone else.

Anyway, let's try and come up with the REALLY IMPORTANT rules that will have an affect on everyone potentially and then write it up as a small consent document that is signed/clicked off when the person buys their pass/green sticker(?) and then have ZERO TOLERANCE.

If this could actually happen then everyone would win. The LEAs would have their quota stats. Some people may learn something BEFORE getting into trouble. And ultimately it would lead to less "riff-raff" at the dunes.

Focused enforcement after a warning that the offender has already signed off on as knowing. WHAT AN IDEA!!! 8)

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Post by jhitesma » Wed Dec 20, 2006 1:10 pm

Woodglue wrote:
alyshka wrote: ...I know if you bought one at the SSSS, they gave a whole packet of info, including a rules sheet.
Not true. I bought mine at the SSSS and wasn't given anthing except the pass itself. Heck I had to ask for a copy of the CC receipt.

I was given an info packet with a map of the dunes (though it used an uncommon datum for the GPS coordinates) and rules in it once.

It was given to me as I was LEAVING gordon's after thanksgiving last year.

I guess that way they can say they handed out literature...even though it really didn't do anyone any good since it wasn't handed out until after they left.

Like I said about law enforcment...I tend to belive in incompetence over malice as the reason for this kind of thing...but when you see it this much you have to start to wonder if the incompetence is real incompetence or if it's by choice.

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Post by Woodglue » Wed Dec 20, 2006 2:47 pm

That is Woodglue's statement, not alyshka's as the post would read.
jhitesma wrote:
Woodglue wrote:...I know if you bought one at the SSSS, they gave a whole packet of info, including a rules sheet.
Not true. I bought mine at the SSSS and wasn't given anthing except the pass itself. Heck I had to ask for a copy of the CC receipt.
Is true! But let me rephrase it anyways:
"I know that when I bought one at the SSSS, they gave me a whole packet of info, including the ICSO Map which has rules listed in it".
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Post by crash » Wed Dec 20, 2006 3:02 pm

Woody.

So your saying that Jason got this and doesn't remember?

Or

In YOUR case you got it and he may or may not have?

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Post by Woodglue » Wed Dec 20, 2006 3:10 pm

crash wrote:In YOUR case you got it and he may or may not have?
Bingo! :wink:
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Post by BakerKlan » Wed Dec 20, 2006 3:21 pm

LB

In the minutes there are stats for Thanksgiving fee collections. In 2006 visitor numbers are up but yet fees are lower than compared to 2005. I get the impression looking at these numbers that the Recreation fee enforcement is lacking? :o
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Post by LoBuck » Wed Dec 20, 2006 4:54 pm

BakerKlan wrote:LB

In the minutes there are stats for Thanksgiving fee collections. In 2006 visitor numbers are up but yet fees are lower than compared to 2005. I get the impression looking at these numbers that the Recreation fee enforcement is lacking? :o
There are a ot of variables when looking at pass sales vs visitor numbers, especially for a particular time period. As far as compliance, it must be measured for particular time period to be accurate.

It depends on if more weekly passes were sold than season passes.
It could be that the percentage of visitors has a season pass and had bought it previously.

Overall for FY2006 (Oct 05 - Sep 06) gross collections from fees was up from FY05. $3.5M vs $2.7M

I will be posting the FY06 and FY07 budgets to the ISDRA TRT website soon. Watch for an announcement, then take a look at those.
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Post by BakerKlan » Wed Dec 20, 2006 6:10 pm

LoBuck wrote:
BakerKlan wrote:LB

In the minutes there are stats for Thanksgiving fee collections. In 2006 visitor numbers are up but yet fees are lower than compared to 2005. I get the impression looking at these numbers that the Recreation fee enforcement is lacking? :o
There are a ot of variables when looking at pass sales vs visitor numbers, especially for a particular time period. As far as compliance, it must be measured for particular time period to be accurate.

It depends on if more weekly passes were sold than season passes.
It could be that the percentage of visitors has a season pass and had bought it previously.

Overall for FY2006 (Oct 05 - Sep 06) gross collections from fees was up from FY05. $3.5M vs $2.7M

I will be posting the FY06 and FY07 budgets to the ISDRA TRT website soon. Watch for an announcement, then take a look at those.
Excellent! Thanks so based upon the gross it appears that fee enforcement is working
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Post by alyshka » Wed Dec 27, 2006 12:40 am

Woodglue wrote:
alyshka wrote:Why don't the LEOs hand out a rule sheet at the permit check points?
readily available to those who look for them.
Those who look for rules to read are not the ones who need them.
I think the people who want to know the rules are not the problem, it is those who could care less, but if told they might care a little more.

When the LEO checks to see if you have a pass they should hand you a sheet with the rules :arrow: a simple 8X11 sheet.
:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:
maybe one in spanish
maybe one in braille
maybe one in redneck
maybe one with pictures
maybe one on audio tape
maybe one on a baseball bat to beat into them
:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:
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Post by LoBuck » Wed Dec 27, 2006 12:54 am

alyshka wrote:Those who look for rules to read are not the ones who need them.
I think the people who want to know the rules are not the problem, it is those who could care less, but if told they might care a little more.
This is where those Checkered Bags that gets stuffed at the partys Sloppy's been coordinating come in handy.

I try to keep a few in my Suburban to hand out when I'm at the dunes. Something that a few ASA members (Jerry Sever and Jim Colln to name two) do and we all can do more of is walk from camp-to-camp talking to people and hand out thos Checkered Bags. I do it every once in a while and it is a fantastic way to get the word out.

You get a mixture of both, those that know the rules and those that don't. The ones that do know usually learn at least one thing new, and the ones that know usually are glad you stopped by. There are of course those rare people that could care less, but even they will take the Checkered Bag from you. Hopefully they read it later and :idea: .

The ASA will ship some Checkered Bags to you to hand out, all you have to do is ask. Email Sloppy, I think he can get you set up. Heck, if he's going to the dunes when you are, he will probably even deliver. Can't beat that. :wink: I think I'll grab some from him this Friday. :mrgreen:
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