BLM News Release Feb 5th; Fees Will Be Implemented At Dumont

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BLM News Release Feb 5th; Fees Will Be Implemented At Dumont

Post by Winston Cup »

For Release: February 5, 2004

Contact: Mike Ahrens (760) 252-6047; Stephen M. Razo (909) 697-5217 CDD-04-21

BLM to Implement Pilot Fee Program at Dumont Dunes

In an effort to meet increasing demands for services and facility improvements, the Bureau of Land Management (BLM) will implement a pilot Recreation Fee Demonstration Program at Dumont Dunes, a popular off highway vehicle (OHV) recreation area north of Baker. Other OHV areas in the region will not be affected but will remain under consideration for fees in the future.

Funds collected through the fee program will be used at Dumont Dunes to support and enhance recreation services which include increased maintenance of the access road, additional toilet facilities, enhanced and increased medical aid equipment and staffing, and increased law enforcement.

To kick off the pilot fee program, fees will only be required on President's Day and Easter weekends. The fee is $20.00 per primary vehicle and/or camp site when purchased onsite at Dumont Dunes or $18 if purchased in advance from BLM or online. The Barstow Field Office is located at 2601 Barstow Road, Barstow, CA and the online site is ThePermitStore.com . Over the next few months, BLM will analyze data and feedback in preparation of implementing the fee demo program for the new season beginning in October 2004.

"Visitation at Dumont Dunes has been steadily increasing," said Linda Hansen, California Desert district manager. "The fees are necessary to offset projected budget reductions and ensure that BLM continues to provide quality services for our visitors."

Congress authorized BLM to initiate the Recreation Fee Demonstration Program in 1996 in order to keep pace with the rising costs of managing recreation sites. The Act (PL 104-134) further designated the California Desert District as a fee demonstration collection site.

"BLM has done extensive outreach with our various visitor groups, elected officials, and other interest groups," added Hansen. "Our constituents understand BLM's fiscal constraints and the need to initiate a fee demo project to maintain the quality of the recreational experience at Dumont Dunes."

For more information on the pilot fee demonstration program at Dumont Dunes, contact Mike Ahrens, BLM Barstow Field Office, (760) 252-6000 or email: barstowohvfees@ca.blm.gov.
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Post by porboy »

I wondered how long they would hold out. Sorry to all you Dumont duners.

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Post by OBSESSED »

"Our constituents understand BLM's fiscal constraints and the need to initiate a fee demo project to maintain the quality of the recreational experience at Dumont Dunes."
Bend Over Dumont Duners......

The BLM-dough (sorta like a dil-pickle-do) will only hurt for a while.

The Blm will spend your money wisely.

When did the "QUALITY" of the duning experience hinge on the BLM?

No one is suprised by this, Glad Dumont was able to hold out for so long.

For sure the BLM will make Dumont a better quality experience.

Right-ttttttttttttttttt

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Post by porboy »

Now here is the question, Will our Glamis season passes be valid in Dumont. I think I already know the answer but was wondering.

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Post by EBCMIKE »

Poorboy....the answer is a deafening NO!

It is really sad that a federal agency is so underfunded that they have to again dip into our pockets as taxpayers and land users.

They need to raise $130,000+ in order to cover bare bones expenses that they are short for their 2003 budget. We will be working with them to TRIM SOME FAT and hope that 2005 will be better. I urge anyone who is willing to get involved to GET INVOLVED. You can email me at miken@cbic.com or join via http://www.friendsofdumont.org WE NEED YOUR HELP!

Anyone interested over presidents day weekend, I will be meeting with Mike Ahrens to discuss how we can make some changes, if you would like to be a part of this discussion, please email me and we will set a place to meet.

Here is a copy of the BLM's FAQ's

Frequently Asked Questions
BLM¡¦s Dumont Dunes Fee Demo Program
2/5/04

Has BLM decided to charge fees at Dumont Dunes?

Yes. While BLM has decided to charge fees, on a pilot basis at Dumont Dunes, the agency has decided not to charge fees at this time for any of its other OHV use areas in the Barstow BLM Field Office.

Why was Dumont chosen to charge fees?

Visitation at Dumont Dunes has been steadily increasing and these visitors need services (law enforcement, emergency medical services, sanitation facilities, interpretive information etc.). These services exceed BLM¡¦s current budget.

What will the fee be?

To kick off the pilot fee program, fees will only be required on President¡¦s Day (Feb 11-17, 2004) and Easter (April 7-13, 2004) weekends. The fee is $20.00 per primary vehicle and/or camp site when purchased onsite at Dumont Dunes or $18 if purchased in advance from BLM or online. The Barstow Field Office is located at 2601 Barstow Road, Barstow, CA and the online site is ThePermitStore.com. The pilot program will end with the Easter weekend. Over the next few months, BLM will analyze data and feedback in preparation of implementing the fee demo program for the new season beginning in October 2004.

How was the plan to collect fees developed?

In 1998, an overall business plan was developed for the entire California Desert District. This plan called for the development of "micro-business plans" specifically analyzing future fee sites. Through an outside contractor, the Barstow Field Office completed a business plan which was reviewed by the general public and special interest groups.

What does the micro-business plan include?

The plan:
„h Describes the fee program
„h Discloses the BLM's past budget, including federal and OHV funds
„h Discloses the cost of managing Dumont Dunes
„h Outlines possible facilities that could be developed at Dumont
„h Analyzes various collection methods disclosing the pros and cons to each
„h Includes a communication plan to help the BLM relay information about the fee demo program to the public
„h Includes a customer feedback mechanism that will give the public the ability to interact with the BLM about the fee program.


What kind of outreach has BLM done with the public and users?

Over the past year, BLM has done extensive outreach with users, elected officials, interest groups, and other interested parties. The feedback has been mixed, with some supporting fees, some opposing, and some willing to accept fees if the funds are used in certain ways. Overall, most of those consulted seemed to understand BLM¡¦s fiscal constraints, the likelihood that Federal appropriated dollars will continue to decrease, the uncertainty and changing direction in State OHV funds, and the need for increased services to visitors to maintain a safe and enjoyable recreation experience. Fees, while never popular, appear to be the only reliable and feasible way to reach management goals.

But don¡¦t my taxes pay for BLM¡¦s budget? And what about the fees I pay for my ¡§green sticker¡¨ to the State?

BLM currently has about $240,000 in funds appropriated by Congress to manage this area. California State OHV grant funds add an additional $140,000. Even with a service level not meeting the user¡¦s basic needs, BLM is spending $520,000 annually on this area, with the remaining funds being ¡§borrowed¡¨ from other recreation areas throughout the Desert and the State, a situation which cannot continue. OHV funds from the State have been reduced by at least 50%, with further reductions possible. Based on users¡¦ input and the clearly demonstrated need for basic services to maintain the quality of the recreation experience at Dumont, BLM estimates that about $1.1 million is needed. The projected fees will all be used to reach that goal.

What will those funds be used for?

Long-term, BLM hopes to work directly with Dumont users to determine the best ways to prioritize use of these funds. Short-term, the plan calls for these fees to be used for basic services: access road maintenance, sanitation facilities, law enforcement, maintenance workers, emergency medical service personnel, volunteer support, information brochures/maps, etc.

Will all the funds be used at Dumont or could BLM use them for ¡§overhead¡¨ costs?

The recreation fee demo program, authorized by Congress, requires that fees be returned to the specific project area and cannot be used for ¡§overhead¡¨ at BLM in other offices or levels. All the fees, minus the collection costs which will be done by a private contractor, will go back to supporting the OHV program at Dumont Dunes. Next year, if there are any surplus funds, they may be used to benefit other OHV use areas in the Barstow Field Office.

Will there be season passes offered next year for frequent users?

That is certainly being considered and is likely. BLM will use this initial pilot period to talk to OHV visitors at Dumont to determine the demand and a possible price for a season pass.

You said fees won¡¦t be charged at the other Barstow OHV areas ¡§at this time.¡¨ What does that mean?

Early last year, BLM began working with the public and released a draft business plan that proposed charging fees at most of the Barstow Field Office OHV areas: Johnson Valley, Stoddard Valley, and El Mirage (fees were not proposed at Razor). Over the last year, with input from the users and the public, BLM determined that it would only begin the fee collection effort at Dumont this year due to that area¡¦s needs and public feedback.
At El Mirage, the State OHV Commission provided funds for initial infrastructure development this year and it was determined that those commitments should be completed and more outreach with the public was needed before any decisions regarding fees at El Mirage should be made. That issue will continue to be reviewed. Johnson Valley and Stoddard Valley are the largest OHV open areas and the proposed West Mojave Plan/Habitat Conservation Plan directs all competitive OHV events in the region to those areas. Cost-recovery permit charges paid by groups for these competitive events should cover BLM¡¦s basic costs for the time being, so no fee is anticipated for at least several years. Because Razor is remote and not heavily used, no fee is anticipated there for the foreseeable future.

For more information, contact BLM¡¦s Barstow Field Office, (760) 252-6000.

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Post by jm102397 »

I'm confused...I thought from previous posts that there would be no fees at Dumont? Wasn't that the big issue brought up over and over again in regards to ISDRA-namely that they (Dumont groups) managed to get no fee while the ISDRA groups were unsuccessful?

And, personally, I would rather pay $90 a season than $20 each trip-are they considering doing a season's pass if this "test" program becomes permanent?
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Post by V8rail »

jm102397 wrote:I'm confused...I thought from previous posts that there would be no fees at Dumont? Wasn't that the big issue brought up over and over again in regards to ISDRA-namely that they (Dumont groups) managed to get no fee while the ISDRA groups were unsuccessful?
Julie,

I was sure you will show up ... :wink:
have fun ...
but this post shows that you had no clue what it was all about ...
enjoy your field day .. :shock:
jm102397 wrote:And, personally, I would rather pay $90 a season than $20 each trip-are they considering doing a season's pass if this "test" program becomes permanent?
and read the **** post ... :roll:
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Post by jm102397 »

Too funny...again, ask a valid question and get no answer, just attack the person. Obviously you haven't caught on yet as to how transparent that is to the person asking the question or to other readers.
And I did read the **** post-but in rereading Mike's post, I see where I missed that part...please find me the closest bed of nails so I can lay in absolution for my awful mistake-will a year be enough for you? :roll:
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Post by SailAway »

Mike, I'm sure Thomas filled you in on how ugly things got at the leadership meeting the other day... it wasn't pleasant, that's for sure.

We were told that the fees would be charged for President's Day and Easter weekend. No fees would be charged in between those two weekends.

It seems to me that from a user standpoint, the upcoming President's Day weekend would be an excellent opportunity to educate the dune visitors rather than blind-siding them with this new fee.

This was brought up at the meeting and Mike was very defensive, saying that the visitors are expecting it since they've been talking about it for so long. I tried to point out that while they may have had warning of it, no one will be expecting it to begin in the middle of the season so there will be backlash.

He said that they have to start it that weekend in order to recoup the costs.

My question to you guys is, how accurate is that statement?

The reason I ask is, as a user-friendly gesture, it would seem to be better to educate over the busy weekend and then start charging over the rest of the weekends. Charge $10 instead of $20 for the "small" weekends and then $20 for Easter weekend. Or start charging in March, with emphasis on education through February.

Will there still be a backlash? Of course. But I have these terrible visions of an already overworked BLM staff (overworked due to the holiday) trying to make change, hand out passes, explain the situation, provide receipts, work the credit card machine, you name it.

It's a logistical nightmare.

And I have to wonder why the rush, when maybe it doesn't have to be such a nightmare? Slowing it down a tad would take the panic out of the weekend.

Wouldn't it be fantastic, amazing, wonderful, if they could, just this once, do it right for the visitor?

Just some thoughts. Hope you don't mind :D
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Post by EBCMIKE »

Julie,

We only toughted that we avoided the fee for last year. Unfortunately the discussion went underground and we were blindsided by this rush to implement the fee this weekend.

Do we want a fee, hell no! But when you have a corrupt government that has managed to rob the funds that are meant to subsidize these exact costs, guess who has to pay. They need to make up some $130,000 in order to make their bare bones budget, but it isnt entirely their fault. There is a lot of FAT that needs to be trimmed...we are going to be working on that shortly.

In example, the Sherriffs dept charges the BLM approx. $88 per day/per sherriffs deputy. This covers their travel, lodging, food, etc. Meanwhile the Sherrifs dept writes tickets and generates revenues from their time out there and not a single red cent goes back to Dumont! So you take into account that they will have approximately 20 deputies out there for Pres Day weekend for a minimum of 4 days that equals $7040.00...SEVEN THOUSAND FORTY DOLLARS!!!!! and they wonder why we get angry when we see them standing around with thumb planted firmly in thier backsides!

So yes the fee sucks, but in response to your post, you go ahead and pay your $90 a year, it will only cost a maximum of $40 for dumont and this is only if you go out on those weekends.

The friends of Dumont will be working with the BLM, there is no reason to take an adversarial position with them until we see if we can reach a mutually agreeable position first.

Being that I dont live in california, all of you californians should be up in arms calling for reform to keep funds like the green sticker fund from bein raided. It is time we brought some culpability to the great state of CA and start hanging these thieving "bass-turds" by their short and curlys!

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Post by Voice »

Mike, I'm sure Thomas filled you in on how ugly things got at the leadership meeting the other day... it wasn't pleasant, that's for sure.
What meeting was this? Is this one of those "underground" things that EBCMIKE was mentioning?

What exactly is a "leadership" meeting?

And, while I certainly do not follow issues that concern Dumont nearly as well as I do with Glamis issues, I was also under the impression that Dumont had avoided the fees.
This is out of the blue as far as I'm concerned.

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Post by EBCMIKE »

Voice,

Leadership meetings are open to the public...no underground there. My comment about underground was meant to show that this is out of the blue that they are springing this on us too. They have been working on this while telling us that it was on hold.

It was literally decided night before last by a phone call from Mike Pool to Linda Hanson with the go ahead.

But like I said in another post, $20 right now isnt **** as long as there are EMT services out there for when I need them!

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Post by SailAway »

Voice wrote:What meeting was this? Is this one of those "underground" things that EBCMIKE was mentioning?
Nope. This was more of an above-ground meeting although after spending an entire day locked in a windowless room it sure feels like underground!

The "underground" that Mike is referring to seems, to me anyway, where the conversation goes when it's bad news and they don't want to hear any flack. How they can manage to do that, time and time again, since they are a publicly-funded agency, beats the heck out of me.
Voice wrote:What exactly is a "leadership" meeting?
Those are meetings that include a loosely-assembled group of people that represent the various OHV interests. No decisions are made at these meetings... usually they are kind of a "where are we now" type of thing with updates coming from all over the desert.
Voice wrote:And, while I certainly do not follow issues that concern Dumont nearly as well as I do with Glamis issues, I was also under the impression that Dumont had avoided the fees.
This is out of the blue as far as I'm concerned.
I'm not as up on Dumont either, but from what I can tell it was also out of the blue for many. Were we ever promised that Dumont would never have fees? There's a difference of opinion there, but no, I don't think so. We were, however, told that it was on hold for the season and would be considered when cooler heads could think more clearly, instead of in a mad rush like the ISDRA increase.

The decision and subsequent announcement to implement fees, let alone starting President's weekend, blindsided many.

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Post by SailAway »

EBCMIKE wrote:Voice,

Leadership meetings are open to the public...no underground there. My comment about underground was meant to show that this is out of the blue that they are springing this on us too. They have been working on this while telling us that it was on hold.

It was literally decided night before last by a phone call from Mike Pool to Linda Hanson with the go ahead.

But like I said in another post, $20 right now isnt **** as long as there are EMT services out there for when I need them!
Yeah, what he said :D

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Post by V8rail »

SailAway wrote:We were told that the fees would be charged for President's Day and Easter weekend. No fees would be charged in between those two weekends.

It seems to me that from a user standpoint, the upcoming President's Day weekend would be an excellent opportunity to educate the dune visitors rather than blind-siding them with this new fee.
I agree absolutely ... I talked since the meeting with many users... many of them are not really against a fee ... they are against the way the BLM did it ...
SailAway wrote: He said that they have to start it that weekend in order to recoup the costs.

My question to you guys is, how accurate is that statement?
PD is the biggest weekend at Dumont ... after PD we normally don't get too much visitation ... so yeah when they plan to get $120,000+ they have to include PD ...
I see it that the fight got to personal between Mike/Harold and Ed. You saw it how they reacted at each other .... It was about proving a point

They had a great oportunity... we watched them during the last months of Tim Read very close, I was sure when they will do it... it will be in the last months of Tim as FM. I did not think that they pull this stunt without a fieldmanager and they proved me wrong.

But finally with this action they (BLM) lost a lot of support from the users. FoDD will fight hard to get finally the real "numbers" from them and we will go through that business plan and clean it up ... It starts next wednesday at our monthly meeting ...
SailAway wrote: Just some thoughts. Hope you don't mind :D
your toughts are very welcome :wink:

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Post by Sandemon »

Thomas, I have to say that I agree with you on this. The moment that Tim is gone the fees go in. What happened to Ed saying "If you need $100000 I will get it for you". You were in that same meeting last fall when he said that. Are the using the same business plan from last time? Is the meeting on Wed. in the same place as last time? :twisted: 8) :)
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Post by SailAway »

Sandemon wrote:What happened to Ed saying "If you need $100000 I will get it for you".
Ed was as shocked by the news as everyone else... they didn't give anyone a chance for a better solution.

And Thomas, I know exactly what you mean by the sparks between Ed and Mike. But anyone's relationship with Ed shouldn't have mattered.

It's a shame Mike didn't make a run around Ed to get to you guys for help and/or pre-warning.

It will be **** hard to earn that trust back.

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Post by kev »

Ok, they need $130,000. President's weekend there are what 40,000 to 60,000 people out there? At 40,000 let's say 3 people to a car, that's 13,334 car's. 13,334 time's $20 equal's $266,680. Are they going to stop collecting when they hit $130,000?? And what about the little dune's are they going to drive through and collect there??

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Post by porboy »

kev wrote:Ok, they need $130,000. President's weekend there are what 40,000 to 60,000 people out there? At 40,000 let's say 3 people to a car, that's 13,334 car's. 13,334 time's $20 equal's $266,680. Are they going to stop collecting when they hit $130,000?? And what about the little dune's are they going to drive through and collect there??
When they figure all the cost recovery they never do it at 100% compliance. They like to aim low and charge high :evil:

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Post by V8rail »

Sandemon wrote:What happened to Ed saying "If you need $100000 I will get it for you". You were in that same meeting last fall when he said that.
Ed (and the whole CORVA BOD) stands behind us. They will support us as good as they can. And yeah Ed proved it many times that he found money for the BLM. Don't start the Guy thing and blame it on Ed (just kidding :lol:) Ed did not know about this stunt (like most of the other OHV orgs there). And ask Grant, Vicki, Tom, Cathyand all the others about Ed's reaction when Linda Hansen was dropping that bomb ...

I know that Ed was also trying to contact Mike Pool several times after the meeting, but he could not get trough.

Sandemon wrote:Are the using the same business plan from last time? Is the meeting on Wed. in the same place as last time? :twisted: 8) :)
yes meeting is at the same place and yes Mike Ahrens uses still the BP. And there we have to do a lot of work ... we have to show him where he is wrong :evil:
Also the Fee FAQ has wrong points in it that need to be corrected !

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Post by SANDUNERS »

EBCMIKE wrote:Over the past year, BLM has done extensive outreach with users, elected officials, interest groups, and other interested parties. The feedback has been mixed, with some supporting fees, some opposing, and some willing to accept fees if the funds are used in certain ways.
I would believe that Friends of Dumont Dunes participated as one of the mentioned above groups. Of the 3 responses listed above, which one was FoDD's stance on this issue?

I can say this is a HUGE blow to Dumont and I'm sure visitation has increased there because of the fee increases at the ISDRA. :roll: You see its all related isn't it...

Was there any mention of a TRT forming???

I've been going to Dumont now for the past 17 years and don't see a need for this, the Barstow BLM office DID get a $503,000.00 grant request funded (for the fiscal year) in law enforcement. The ISDRA received ZERO. :cry:

So lets see, Dumont visitors are increasing so lets charge them a fee and leave the other 4 areas alone (for now,,, :wink: ) and grant ONE MILLION dollars to the same Barstow office for development at El Mirage dry lake bed. Something smells funny here... you smell it too???
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Post by V8rail »

SailAway wrote: It's a shame Mike didn't make a run around Ed to get to you guys for help and/or pre-warning.

It will be **** hard to earn that trust back.

Vicki
Yes Mike (and Harold) knows that we moved Ed from the president position in our BOD to try to get some of this old CAL4WDC - CORVA battle out of our way.

sure that trust is gone ... but that will not stop us from fighting for Dumont.

kev, here is the answer to your question : no and have you read this in the FAQ
All the fees, minus the collection costs which will be done by a private contractor, will go back to supporting the OHV program at Dumont Dunes. Next year, if there are any surplus funds, they may be used to benefit other OHV use areas in the Barstow Field Office.
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Post by V8rail »

Jim,

posted it many times before, FoDD would accept a fee when there is NO other way to run the area. We did not support the business plan and we do not support this fee ... we did also together with CORVA stop the fee 1.5 years ago and we stopped together with CORVA the fee last october.
Is that clear enough about our standpoint :?:


BUT I was at meetings where the BLM was told to go ahead with the fees. It was not ASA, CORVA or Friends meetings, but it was OHV groups
SANDUNERS wrote:So lets see, Dumont visitors are increasing so lets charge them a fee and leave the other 4 areas alone (for now,,, :wink: ) and grant ONE MILLION dollars to the same Barstow office for development at El Mirage dry lake bed. Something smells funny here... you smell it too???
Jim,

please stop this El Mirage BS. BTW it was not for the lake bed, the million is for a visitor center and the OHMVR commision agreed to pay for that visitor center before Ed was commissioner, btw that was also why El Mirage get near zero in grant $$$$$ last year ...please as a member of the ASA BOD you should step back and you should not start false rumors about other orgs or people ....

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Post by V8rail »

ohh and Jim I forgot ...

yes Harold Johnson told us at the meeting that because of the fee at ISDRA there is an increase of "GlamASSianers" (Harolds word, ask Grant :wink: ) at Dumont.

hopefully Dumont and Glamis are not to closely related.... think about the mess when they start the same stunt to recover the $2 millions the ISDRA is in the red :shock:
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Post by SANDUNERS »

posted it many times before, FoDD would accept a fee when there is NO other way to run the area. We did not support the business plan and we do not support this fee
That is fine, good answer,

Relax a little there Thomas, I'm not accusing you or anyone of anything??
?
please as a member of the ASA BOD you should step back and you should not start false rumors about other orgs or people ....
It smells funny because its the same BLM office receiving the funds and I haven't seen any report that visitation at El Mirage is growing. You must be reading more into my posts??? No ref. to EW here.

Now what about a TRT forming to oversee these funds? (that they claim they need so bad)
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Post by V8rail »

SANDUNERS wrote: You must be reading more into my posts???
when that is the case ... sorry!

but what has El Mirage to do here ... this is a Dumont topic

and visitation at El Mirage is growing !

SANDUNERS wrote: Now what about a TRT forming to oversee these funds? (that they claim they need so bad)
had a short discussion with Ed, Linda Hansen and Roy about it. We (Ed and I) are against a TRT. FoDD is currently far away from it, but we try to form FoDD into a stakeholder group, kind of like the Friends of El Mirage are. That would be a much more powerfull way to work with the BLM.
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A free people should have free public land

Post by schraderrl »

Maybe when the BLM cruse the campgrounds they only see the big money RVs and miss the little guy with the pick-up truck with just a tent and two motorcycles.

I guess a guy has to invest hundreds of thousands of dollars into OHV equipment to make the fees seam reasonable or in other words match the expensive land with the proper lifestyle.

I still can’t get over how Pismo’s beachfront property is cheaper than the desert.

Any word yet from the BLM on free passes for the “Dumont TRT” members?

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Re: A free people should have free public land

Post by V8rail »

schraderrl wrote: Any word yet from the BLM on free passes for the “Dumont TRT” members?
Bob,

that's a funny one :lol:

serious hopefully there will be no "Dumont TRT" :shock:

and please when you (or anybody else) sends comments to the BLM ... send also a copy to us. The BLM claims that over 90% accept a fee at Dumont.

Thomas

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Re: A free people should have free public land

Post by SailAway »

V8rail wrote:The BLM claims that over 90% accept a fee at Dumont.

Thomas
That's right, that's what they're saying... I heard it with my own ears.

I wonder if they're asking those people if they want to pay for the things that we at the ISDRA are paying for.

Such as paying for implementation and collection of the very fees we pay.

Such as paying for monitoring species as required by the endangered species act.

Such as paying for the basics that would be required whether or not anyone was actually recreating in the area.

The problem is, like when the fee demo program was first brought to the ISDRA, the duning public is fooled into believing that the new fees will pay for "amenities" such as bathrooms, dumpsters, etc.

I'm sure most people are willing to pay for the amenities.

But the Dumont devotees should take a clue from the ISDRA devotees... how many "amenities" is our $90 paying for?

How many new camping pads will we get? Bathrooms? Dust abatement?

Learn from the mistakes made by others.

Oh, and for the people who will say "but I don't want to pay for bathrooms or dumpsters" not to worry, you're not... your money is going for species monitoring and to pay for law enforcement which by coincidence also means fee compliance enforcement.

But I'm sure the BLM explained that to you when they said you'd be paying a fee.

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Post by Cathi »

Yes, to vouch as to Ed's position on this.. he got up and tried to leave the room. He was extremely frustrated. He couldn't even hear the words "fees". I was amazed how he wasn't even able to mutter a word. It was a reaction - he just had to try and get out of the room.

I don't like the fee's either. I feel $90. for each vehicle in Glamis is too much and then going to Dumont paying an extra $20. is wrong! How are we to keep track of these passes now?? A notebook??

Also I am worried about the word "test". We know if they try something it becomes permanent.

We have to get some political power behind us. BLM is in a bind getting their monies to run our lands.. we need to speak up and loudly!!! Linda Hansen broke the news to us as softly as she could. But all of us, BLM if they want their saleries.... and us duners need to get tough!!!!!

We need to get our money from the OHMVR !! We need to be stronger than the commission and demand our money. Write letters!! Maybe we all need to start a letter campaign again. Got to start somewhere.

I am not sure if we need to start paying some political leaders... dump money into thier pockets ... back them on thier campaigns.. take em out.?? But something needs to be done to get our green sticker money, gas tax money and grant money put back into our lands!!!!!!!!!

I am sorry - just frustrated.
Anyone with ideas, suggestions... written petitions. I know we are working on Washington.. but how to we get Gale Norten to hear us?????


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Post by RichB »

Taxation w/out representation, didn't we go to war with England over that? So BLM Barstow can just up and decide since they're short some cash they'll just up and start to collect fees at Dumont?

I have no mercy or sympathy for the BLM folks when they go and do something as underhanded as this. I don't want to hear about being nice to them etc. That's why we get the comments like "90% of folks are ok with it". Everyone needs to raise hell and let them know at a minimum that underhanded sneaky policies are not acceptable.

From my govermental expeience the BLM is probably the most out of control and out of touch federal agency. The local folks are allowed to run wild doing whatever they see fit and most of the time the upper leadership has no clue.

I'm mad as hell, let them pick up trash out there with the fees, I"m out of the volunteer business as of now.
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Re: A free people should have free public land

Post by V8rail »

Vicki,

a great post :wink:
SailAway wrote: Such as paying for implementation and collection of the very fees we pay.
Business Plan shows that 30% of the budget is only to implement and collect the fee (btw enforcing is not included in this 30%)
SailAway wrote: Such as paying for monitoring species as required by the endangered species act.
ohhh yeah ... Business Plan is full of it
and a fence for the ACEC and Kingston Range Wilderness ...
or enforcing that nobody rides on a road in the wilderness ....
or cleaning the "stinkhouse" at the ACEC
or the $100,000 a year set aside for El Mirage visitor center, but they know for years that green sticker will pay for it ...
and much more
SailAway wrote: The problem is, like when the fee demo program was first brought to the ISDRA, the duning public is fooled into believing that the new fees will pay for "amenities" such as bathrooms, dumpsters, etc.
and I was at a meeting organized by an OHV org where most people was saying straight out that "the sand guys have to much money anyway, so let them pay"....

SailAway wrote: But the Dumont devotees should take a clue from the ISDRA devotees... how many "amenities" is our $90 paying for?

How many new camping pads will we get? Bathrooms? Dust abatement?

Learn from the mistakes made by others.
hopefully we have and we look very close what you guys are going trough ...

btw I know from many groups that usually go to Dumont for PD ... that they are not going or going a week later .... would be fun when the BLM sit at Dumont in full force and nobody would show up :wink:

I had planned an Easter trip .... sorry BLM guys I'm duning somewhere else that weekend 8)

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Post by OBSESSED »

Learn from the mistakes made by others.
:?: :?: :roll: :?: :?:

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Post by Crowdog »

From my experience at Sand Mountain, I would fight fees with everything you can throw at it.

In about a years' time, here is the difference at Sand Mountain:

- One additional dumpster
- More law enforcement on busy weekends. But BLM brings in out of area LEOs that aren't familiar with the area and seem to be heavy handed.
- Lot's of closed signs
- More "scientific" type folks crawling around
- More BLM employees checking to see if we have paid our fees at the fee station. How much are we paying for fee compliance?!

If anyone thinks that a few additional LEOs would help keep the rif-raf away think again. They focus on whip flags and tail lights. The easy stuff that makes it look like they are working.

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Post by Washroad »

I am not sure if we need to start paying some political leaders... dump money into thier pockets ... back them on thier campaigns.. take em out.??
Careful there. Some of the things you're suggesting are illegal and hinting of bribery.


And they're really really really expensive. :D
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Post by schraderrl »

Someone told me that the OHMVR gave all remaining money to Riverside for the supposed future OHV Park.
If this is true then I see it as a payoff to Riverside BLM for closing the entire desert to OHVs (Rice Valley and Windy Point to name a few sand areas)

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Post by SailAway »

Crowdog wrote:From my experience at Sand Mountain, I would fight fees with everything you can throw at it.
I absolutely agree with Jon here.

Not only is the future of the fee demo in question (mostly because they haven't been able to prove it's bringing in the money it's supposed to bring in), but the regulation that allows the fee demo/cost recovery (a rose by any other name...) does not allow for things such as species monitoring.

And you'd better believe our Congressmen would be interested to know that the budgets are being written to include the administrative costs of the fee demo/cost recovery program.

While the only direction the ISDRA can take right now is calling for a GAO investigation, there must be something else Dumont can do.

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Post by THE BOMB »

Maybe someone should invite "ARNOLD" for a sand rail run and scare the **** out of him! Maybe he'd get hooked and we would have an ally. And maybe we stand around the fire at night with the LEOs and BLM and sing Kum-bye-Ya :shock: Oh well!

I just hope this doesn't put a damper on clean-up weekend. I would hate to drive from camp to camp this year with trashbags and get nothing but, "go flip yourself"!

I'll still be there PD, takes too long to get off work and then cancel a trip over $20.

Seriously the ARNOLD idea is one I will try in the near future!

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Post by Voice »

Cathy wrote:We have to get some political power behind us. BLM is in a bind getting their monies to run our lands.. we need to speak up and loudly!!! Linda Hansen broke the news to us as softly as she could. But all of us, BLM if they want their saleries.... and us duners need to get tough!!!!!
The following action alert is perhaps one of the most important alerts
since Fee Demo was created in 1996.

This week is the best chance to end the program for the Forest Service
(USFS), Fish & Wildilfe Service (USFWS), and Bureau of Land Management
(BLM). The version of the program in National Parks will be made
permanent, and if we do not act now, the fees for the other three
agencies, and perhaps the Bureau of Reclamation, will also become permanent.

Read below for information on calling and faxing Senators, and get your
friends, family, and anyone else you can think of to do it too.

Your action now will be pivotal as to whether we win or lose this 7 year
battle.

-MZ

---

February 6, 2004

FEE DEMO ACTION ALERT!

* SENATE ENERGY COMMITTEE IS NOW RESCHEDULED TO VOTE ON S.1107 ON
WEDNESDAY MORNING, 2.11.04, AT 10 am EST


* DEPT. OF INTERIOR JUST MADE BLM FEES PERMANENT, 2.6.04, BY AN
ADMINISTRATIVE DECISION.


* PLEASE REQUEST AN AMENDMENT TO S.1107 TO KILL FEE DEMO FOR USFS,
BLM & USFWS


* YOUR HELP IS NEEDED!



THE OPPORTUNITY:
The Senate Energy and Natural Resources Committee will now vote, on
Wednesday morning 2/11/04, on Sen. Thomas's (R-WY) Recreational Fee
Authority Act of 2003 (S. 1107)

S. 1107 calls for making recreation user fees permanent in the National Parks only. Although this bill would allow the program to expire in the Forest Service, BLM, and US Fish and Wildlife Service, there is a
possibility that one or more Senators will introduce an amendment that
will specifically kill Fee Demo in those three agencies. (This would be
an improvement to S. 1107, in our opinion.)


THE THREAT JUST INTENSIFIED:
Interior Secretary Gale Norton is putting enormous pressure upon Senate
Energy Committee members to add into S.1107 the same language that
appears in Congressman Regula's (R-OH) atrocious fee legislation titled
"Federal Lands Recreation Enhancement Act", HR 3283.

HR 3283 will make recreation fees permanent for the NPS, USFS, BLM,
USFWS and the (newly-added) Bureau of Reclamation. It will also make
failure to pay the fees punishable by 6 months in jail plus a $5,000 fine!

In fact, the Dept. of Interior just announced on 2.6.04 that it will be
enforcing $5000 BLM fines(it took this step administratively!) that
include provisions from HR 3283 - such as ticketed individuals guilty
till proven innocent, owners of ticketed cars responsible for tickets,
and a $5,000 fine for non-compliance. The new BLM fees will start on 4.6.04.

Only Congress can reverse an administrative decision such as this - so
we must now ask Senators to add "kill language" to S. 1107, to terminate
recreation fes in the BLM, US Forest Service and US Fish & Wildlife
Service. Together, we have a chance to nip in the bud the
Administration's attempt to enact permanent BLM recreation fees without
Congressional authorization.


WHAT TO DO:
Please contact every Senator on the Committee, if possible, by fax and
also by phone. The contact list is below. These faxes and phone calls
MUST be made by no later than 9:30 am EST Wednesday, February 11th. The
Committee will be voting on S. 1107 on Wednesday morning!

Address your fax "Dear Senator" and send the same fax to each Senator.
Faxes can be easily sent (less busy tones) outside office hours. Please
call as many as possible, if you have no access to a fax machine. Start
with Senators Domenici and Bingaman, any Senators from your home state
and others at random if you have limited time.

This is one of those times when we need to bring enormous pressure to
bear on the Senate Energy Committee at short notice. Who else can you
get to call and fax? Friends, family members? Please remember this email
alert is part of a grassroots nationwide campaign against Fee Demo.
There is no well-financed lobbying effort getting underway. It's just
citizens like you and me who believe access to our public lands must
remain free for all of us.

WHAT TO SAY (brief is fine):
Ask each Senator to support S. 1107 as written, at Energy Committee
markup. Request an amendment that specifically kills Fee Demo for the
Forest Service, BLM and US Fish & Wildlife Service.

(When we say this, we don't know that such an amendment will be offered,
but we believe one will be. If you're asked who's going to offer such an
amendment, it's fine to say you don't know, but that you've heard it may
come up...)

SAMPLE LETTER (please put in your own words and add to...)
Dear Senator,

Please vote in support of S. 1107, the Recreation Fee Authority Act, as
it is written. Please do not support the addition of any other agencies
other than the National Park Service, to S. 1107.

Please also vote to support any amendment to S. 1107 that may be
introduced, which adds kill language for recreation fees for the US
Forest Service, BLM and US FIsh & Wildlife Service.

I strongly oppose the decision by the Dept. of Interior, in the Federal
Register on 2.6.04, to make BLM recreation fees permanent.

Thank you.
Yours sincerely,
(name and address very clearly, please.)
COMMITTEE CONTACT LIST:

* indicates crucial to contact if you only have limited time.

Senator Phone Å Å Å Å Å Å ..Fax
*Sen. Jeff Bingaman (D-NM) 202-224-5521 202-224-2852

*Sen. Pete Domenici (R-NM) 202-224-6621 202-224-6163
or 228-0900

*Sen. Craig Thomas (R-WY) 202-224-6441 202-224-1724
*Sen. Lamar Alexander (R-TN) 202-224-4944 202-228-3398
*Sen. Ron Wyden (D-OR) 202-224-5244 202-228-2717
*Sen. Dianne Feinstein (D-CA) 202-224-3841 202-228-3954
or 228-3953
Sen. Gordon Smith (R-OR) 202-224-3753 202-228-3997
*Sen. Larry Craig (R-ID) 202-224-2752 202-228-1067

*Sen. Jon Kyl (R-AZ) 202-224-4521 202-224-2207
*Sen. Mary Landrieu (D-LA) 202-224-5824 202-224-9735

*Sen. Conrad Burns (R-MT) 202-224-2644 202-224-8594
Sen. Byron Dorgan (D-ND) 202-224-2551 202-224-1193
*Sen. Maria Cantwell (D-WA) 202-224-3441 202-228-0514
Sen. Jim Talent (R-MO) 202-224-6154 202-228-1518
Sen. Don Nickles (R-OK) 202-224-5754 202-224-6008

*Sen. Charles Schumer (D-NY) 202-224-6542 202-228-3027
*Sen. Tim Johnson (D-SD) 202-224-5842 202-228-5765
Sen. Lisa Murkowski (R-AK) 202-224-6665 202-224-5301
Sen. Jim Bunning (R-KY) 202-224-4343 202-228-1373
Sen. Bob Graham (D-FL) 202-224-3041 202-224-2237
Sen. Daniel Akaka (D-HI) 202-224-6361 202-224-2126
*Sen. Ben Nighthorse
Campbell (R-CO) 202-224-5852 202-228-4609

Please also Contact:
Sen. Bill Frist (R-TN) 202-224-3344 202-228-1264
Sen. Tom Daschle (D-SD) 202-224-2321 202-224-6603
Rep. Dennis Hastert (R-IL) 202 225-2976 202-225-0697
Rep. Richard Pombo (R-CA) 202-225-1947 202-226-0861

--
Michael Zierhut
zierhutm@ojai.net

Free Our Forests
http://www.freeourforests.org
Mahmoud Ahmedinejad in a letter to President Elect Barak Obama
"May God Almighty ... bless the leaders of societies with the courage to learn from the mistakes of predecessors,"
"I hope that you will be able to take fullest advantage of the opportunity to serve and leave behind a positive legacy."

Image

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Post by Cathi »

The new BLM fees will start on 4.6.04.

Only Congress can reverse an administrative decision such as this - so
we must now ask Senators to add "kill language" to S. 1107, to terminate
recreation fes in the BLM, US Forest Service and US Fish & Wildlife
Service. Together, we have a chance to nip in the bud the
Administration's attempt to enact permanent BLM recreation fees without
Congressional authorization.


WHAT TO DO:
Please contact every Senator on the Committee, if possible, by fax and
also by phone. The contact list is below. These faxes and phone calls
MUST be made by no later than 9:30 am EST Wednesday, February 11th. The
Committee will be voting on S. 1107 on Wednesday morning!

Address your fax "Dear Senator" and send the same fax to each Senator.
Faxes can be easily sent (less busy tones) outside office hours. Please
call as many as possible, if you have no access to a fax machine. Start
with Senators Domenici and Bingaman, any Senators from your home state
and others at random if you have limited time.

This is one of those times when we need to bring enormous pressure to
bear on the Senate Energy Committee at short notice. Who else can you
get to call and fax? Friends, family members? Please remember this email
alert is part of a grassroots nationwide campaign against Fee Demo.
There is no well-financed lobbying effort getting underway. It's just
citizens like you and me who believe access to our public lands must
remain free for all of us.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
4/6/04 fees will start ?? Not for DUMONT.

This is what was needed on this thread.

Now let's get writing. We have done it before. Make some noise.
THEY NEED THESE BY FEB. 11th- fax them.

I meant take em out.. to ah, GLAMIS!! See first had what is enjoyed by sooo many.

No bribes.. just free money.. and for listening to EDUCATION on our issues. There is always a spin.

Thanks for posting "What to do".


Cat ~ Glamismom
"The Warden"
Duners, Secty. - ASA mem. /past ASA rep.
Last edited by Cathi on Mon Feb 09, 2004 11:45 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by Voice »

:D
That's FEB 11th this wed!... not Nov 11th

This is the time to hit them.

BTW: I was told that CORVA had tentativly agreed to start supporting this orginization and would start actively opposing Demo Fee... Unfortunantly I was informed a week or two later that CORVA had decided that "now is not a good time" and support was pulled. (Pressure from somewhere?)

Brian
Mahmoud Ahmedinejad in a letter to President Elect Barak Obama
"May God Almighty ... bless the leaders of societies with the courage to learn from the mistakes of predecessors,"
"I hope that you will be able to take fullest advantage of the opportunity to serve and leave behind a positive legacy."

Image

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Re: A free people should have free public land

Post by RichB »


btw I know from many groups that usually go to Dumont for PD ... that they are not going or going a week later .... would be fun when the BLM sit at Dumont in full force and nobody would show up :wink:

I had planned an Easter trip .... sorry BLM guys I'm duning somewhere else that weekend 8)

Thomas
Everyone needs to seriously consider this. I REALLY want to go to Dumont this weekend but I just can't swallow what's going on. The more folks that pay that fee this weekend the more the BLM's argument that 90% of the people don't mind the fees is reinforced.

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Post by Cathi »

AHH,

Some are reading my posts. Thanks for the heads up.. I edited it.


Ok, I have one of our secretaries faxing letters to all that were on that list.
Let's make some noise.

Guess payroll will be behind this week. :)

Cat~
"The way to be safe is to never be secure."
Ben Franklin~

DUNERS,ORBA,AMA & Friends of Dumont Dunes
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ASA Past Area Representative

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Post by HappyHour »

I personally have absolutely no problem what so ever in paying the fee to go to Dumont. As long as I see the money going towards what they are saying it is going towards. Like more police, and other emergency personnel, better facilities and so forth. Besides that I like to go to Dumont to relax and dune, not worry about my stuff getting hit or stolen with all the idiots that have been coming out there lately. If this is what it takes to keep the "riff-raff" and "unwanted's" away, then fine that's good. Dumont is a more family atmosphere and I love it that way. For those of you who won't go this weekend because of the fee, well all I have to say to you is.............good ridden's!!!!!!!!! That is just another idiot I don't have to worry about and more sand for me........... :D
Thanks for Playin!!!

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Post by V8rail »

A little play with numbers (most are out of the BFO business plan):

projected revenue with fee $1021k (I think they will be very lucky when they get that much !)
revenues excluding fee $380k

so the revenue that the fee has to generate : $641k

collection cost (non BLM ) $230k
collection cost for BLM $70k (I’m sure that’s too low ...clerk, beancounter, planner etc)
enforcing cost $150k (out of $390k spend for leos and park rangers .. What I hear from the ISDRA that’s also low.)
so total fee cost : $450k

funds generated by the fee for improved service : $641k - $450k = $191k

so each dollar for service improvements cost us $3.2 .... and that’s with a very optimistic calculation ... I’m sure the reality will be much worst
Thomas

When your engine is not in front, you must be behind !


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Ross & Alice
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Post by Ross & Alice »

I'm going to pay the fee and just lump it. Kind of a drag though.
Often I have friends stop by for a short while on their way to 'Vegas. Sometimes to just drop off or pick up kids and it means $20 to get to our campsite.

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Post by RichB »

HappyHour wrote:If this is what it takes to keep the "riff-raff" and "unwanted's" away, then fine that's good. Dumont is a more family atmosphere and I love it that way. For those of you who won't go this weekend because of the fee, well all I have to say to you is.............good ridden's!!!!!!!!! That is just another idiot I don't have to worry about and more sand for me........... :D
Yeah, we're all idiots, just the kind of idiots that have been volunteering our time to keep dumont clean, safe, and open. We're also the same idiots that are out there offering to tow people back to camp, loan parts/tools out, get vehciles unstuck, help with medical emergencies, and befriend other dune lovers.

You must not have ever been to Glamis because there's enough riff raff there to spread around every other dune riding area in the country; and they have fees. There's no justification for increased enforcement at Dumont, NONE.

The real hard core duners go to dumont for the riding and to enjoy the freedom of being left alone. Paying for more cops to look over my shoulder is not something I consider to be an enhancement to my dune experience.

The fact is that people sharing your current attiitude you will eventually be the demise of the sport because once you let the BLM take an inch without a peep, you're on the road to increased regulation, fees, enforcement, environmental oversight and eventual extinction. The first batch of people that this will hurt is the folks who are barely able to afford the sport as it is. After that, the rest of us will be slowly pushed out by increased restrictions/more aggressive nit picking by the cops you'd have paid for.

Thomas is absolutely right, any "improvements" we would eventually end up with will be a poor fraction of what we could've bought for ourselves if we just took up a collection and got something that made sense

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Post by V8rail »

another number :

last fall the BLM telling us they need $465,000 to operate Dumont through this season, now we are $519,235 ... nice business practice
Thomas

When your engine is not in front, you must be behind !


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Post by RichB »

V8rail wrote:another number :

last fall the BLM telling us they need $465,000 to operate Dumont through this season, now we are $519,235 ... nice business practice
Yeah, that's 100% typical of how this is going to work however, I still like the age-old practice of announcing something less than 2 weeks ahead of time so that people don't have a chance to mobilize opposition.

This is just flat-@ss wrong they way it is happening.

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Post by EBCMIKE »

We dont need any infighting between us. The fee will not detour the idiot crowd unfortunately. They always seem to have money, irregardless of how much it is!

We need to make a stand and hold BLM accountable for their actions and how they are spending OUR money! I doubt we will be able to do away with the fee in the future, but we can organize and make sure it is spent PROPERLY. This means getting involved people, not sitting on your arse waiting for others to do it for you. Lets face it, if there are only a handful of people willing to do all the work, then dont come crying to me when it is closed! I am one of the few who is trying to do something.

I say we suck it up and pay the fee this weekend, then as we get the documentation the BLM is promising to provide, we can tear it apart and see if we can minimize the fee (worst case scenario)

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