Arrrgghhh. (or once again I'm reminded why I hate macs)

No fences. Non area specific. General discussion forum.

Moderator: Sitewide Forum Moderators

Post Reply
User avatar
jhitesma
7th Gear "No Brakes" Member
7th Gear "No Brakes" Member
Posts: 7791
Joined: Thu Nov 09, 2000 9:57 pm
Please enter the middle number: 5
Location: USA
Contact:

Arrrgghhh. (or once again I'm reminded why I hate macs)

Post by jhitesma »

I've got a mac in my house right now. It's on loan so I can test some stuff I'm working on that has to interact with a mac application. I've always admired macs - until I have to use them.

Anyone know what's wrong with this webpage....offered by masters of user-friendliness Apple themselves:

http://docs.info.apple.com/article.html?artnum=75459

Here's a hint.

I just accidentally double clicked while trying to right click to check a few things about my selection. Of course being a mac there is no second button (it's a iBook so he's no adding one either, I could use a usb mouse but with a 12" laptop...it's just silly you need more room for the mouse than for the computer!) So when I instinctively hit a second button what happens - instead of getting a nice context menu I open all of the several hundred folders...bringing the system to it's knees trying to open that many windows at once!

I've done the same thing in windows and various X windows systems in the past and never brought a computer to it's knees so fast before. Then again this is a lower end iBook so I'll forgive it's performance. at this point.

I still can't stand a single button though. I know mac people who will tell you all day long that it's better to have fewer choices....but for me it just slows me down. The right button just makes so much sense to me that leaving it out just seems nearly unthinkable.

Of course the reason the mac people don't mind is they know all the keyboard shortcuts. I still can't figure out the twist of logic that makes mac users defend having to use keyboard shortcuts...just to accomplish something with the mouse. It forces you to use two hands for something that you should be able to do with one. And you have to remember these key commands that go with the mouse click. This is somehow supposed to be intuitive? If it was I wouldn't have to deal with the page above to lookup how to "Close all windows".

So can anyone tell me what's wrong with that page? I don't think mac users will figure it out. They tend to think backwards from me it seems.

User avatar
Sloppyduner
CA Event Committee Chair
CA Event Committee Chair
Posts: 4012
Joined: Tue Mar 18, 2003 11:17 pm
Please enter the middle number: 5
Location: continually being flung around the Sun

Post by Sloppyduner »

Sound like a pain!!!!

When I TRIED to get my A+ cert the very first thing they did was teach us to navigate WITHOUT a mouse. SCREW THAT!!!!! I can see how that would come in handy when NEEDED but if you have a mouse USE IT!!!!

I can stop a car without brakes. It takes a long time. It's not the best thing for the car. it's a pain in the @ss for. but it doesn't mean a car without brakes is better, or is even a good idea.

What did I just type? :roll:
Image

Image

Image
....and at the end of that light there is another tunnel

User avatar
Intelliduner
6th Gear "Wide Open" Member
6th Gear "Wide Open" Member
Posts: 1018
Joined: Fri Nov 24, 2000 3:02 pm
antispam: NO
Please enter the middle number: 7
Location: USA

Re: Arrrgghhh. (or once again I'm reminded why I hate macs)

Post by Intelliduner »

jhitesma wrote:I've got a mac in my house right now. It's on loan so I can test some stuff I'm working on that has to interact with a mac application. I've always admired macs - until I have to use them.

Anyone know what's wrong with this webpage....offered by masters of user-friendliness Apple themselves:

http://docs.info.apple.com/article.html?artnum=75459

Here's a hint.

I just accidentally double clicked while trying to right click to check a few things about my selection.
Double-clicked what?
jhitesma wrote:Of course being a mac there is no second button
True of the older Macs, but the function of a second button is available by pressing ctrl while clicking.

jhitesma wrote: I still can't stand a single button though. I know mac people who will tell you all day long that it's better to have fewer choices....but for me it just slows me down. The right button just makes so much sense to me that leaving it out just seems nearly unthinkable. Of course the reason the mac people don't mind is they know all the keyboard shortcuts.
Again, there are not fewer choices. The functions of a right button--when applicable--are there by pressing ctrl and clicking. I don't find that "keyboard shortcut" to be a big deal. In fact, the new "SuperMouse" does include a right button function (it's hidden under the shell of the mouse--it's sensitive to whether you press the left or right side of the shell), and I'm so used to using the ctrl key that it's taking me some time to learn to click the mouse correctly (this, of course, is configurable--the mouse can be left as a single button top if one wishes).
jhitesma wrote:And you have to remember these key commands that go with the mouse click. This is somehow supposed to be intuitive?
It's just one key, no big deal to remember. Especially since it's so useful, it's quick to remember. And, it's not like Windows doesn't offer several keyboard options as well (anyone for a Function key?)

jhitesma wrote:So can anyone tell me what's wrong with that page? I don't think mac users will figure it out. They tend to think backwards from me it seems.
Maybe the fact that it doesn't tell you which key is the "command" key? True, but I believe that is in the basic owners manual that you get with every Mac, so I don't blame Apple for not putting such basic information on every one of their web pages that references the key.

_d

Dunerdave
1st Gear Member
Posts: 4
Joined: Mon Feb 24, 2003 5:29 pm
Please enter the middle number: 5
Contact:

Post by Dunerdave »

Jason, I'm not sure what you are trying to do. What problem are you having? I am a former Mac user(work) and know a little about them. give me some more detail.

Dave Hiddessen

Dunerdave
1st Gear Member
Posts: 4
Joined: Mon Feb 24, 2003 5:29 pm
Please enter the middle number: 5
Contact:

Command Key

Post by Dunerdave »

BTW, the command key is the one with the "squiggle" on it near the cntl key.

D.

User avatar
jhitesma
7th Gear "No Brakes" Member
7th Gear "No Brakes" Member
Posts: 7791
Joined: Thu Nov 09, 2000 9:57 pm
Please enter the middle number: 5
Location: USA
Contact:

Post by jhitesma »

I'm surprised no one has yet figured out the major flaw in Apples webpage.

But since it's only mac users posting I'm not super surprised ;)


Intelli, what I double clicked was part of my selection. And having to use ANY key no matter how simple to perform a mouse function is just plain and simple broken. You should have to use two hands to do what can easily be done with one on a properly designed system. And Apple may be offering the new super mouse which does support dual buttons...but the notebooks are still single from what I can tell with no option for a real mouse. (Not to mention the pads on mac notebooks drive me crazy, you can't just tap the pad to duplicate a mouse click again forcing me to use more fingers than most systems and the pads are so sensitive that the cursor keeps jumping around because it's sensing my fingers above the pad!)

And yes windows does offer keyboard options. But they're standardized options that have been around for a LONG time and work on windows systems, older dos systems, Unix systems and just about anything else you can come across. Even copy and paste mac moved to the most confusing key on the keyboard....if you're going to make "Command" a little squiggle then show it as a little squiggle and don't just expect people intuitively learn that the squiggle means command - because that ain't intuitive.

Not to mention the keyboard shortcuts on other systems are just that - shortcuts. There are other ways to perform the same functions so you don't NEED to know the unintuitive shortcuts.

On the upside at least Apple is finally putting the nipples on the right keys of their keyboards.


PostPosted: Sun Mar 12, 2006 10:11 am Post subject: Re: Arrrgghhh. (or once again I'm reminded why I hate macs)
jhitesma wrote:
I've got a mac in my house right now. It's on loan so I can test some stuff I'm working on that has to interact with a mac application. I've always admired macs - until I have to use them.

Anyone know what's wrong with this webpage....offered by masters of user-friendliness Apple themselves:

http://docs.info.apple.com/article.html?artnum=75459

Here's a hint.

I just accidentally double clicked while trying to right click to check a few things about my selection.


Double-clicked what?

jhitesma wrote:
Of course being a mac there is no second button


True of the older Macs, but the function of a second button is available by pressing ctrl while clicking.


jhitesma wrote:

I still can't stand a single button though. I know mac people who will tell you all day long that it's better to have fewer choices....but for me it just slows me down. The right button just makes so much sense to me that leaving it out just seems nearly unthinkable. Of course the reason the mac people don't mind is they know all the keyboard shortcuts.


Again, there are not fewer choices. The functions of a right button--when applicable--are there by pressing ctrl and clicking. I don't find that "keyboard shortcut" to be a big deal. In fact, the new "SuperMouse" does include a right button function (it's hidden under the shell of the mouse--it's sensitive to whether you press the left or right side of the shell), and I'm so used to using the ctrl key that it's taking me some time to learn to click the mouse correctly (this, of course, is configurable--the mouse can be left as a single button top if one wishes).

jhitesma wrote:
And you have to remember these key commands that go with the mouse click. This is somehow supposed to be intuitive?


It's just one key, no big deal to remember. Especially since it's so useful, it's quick to remember. And, it's not like Windows doesn't offer several keyboard options as well (anyone for a Function key?)


jhitesma wrote:
So can anyone tell me what's wrong with that page? I don't think mac users will figure it out. They tend to think backwards from me it seems.
Maybe the fact that it doesn't tell you which key is the "command" key? True, but I believe that is in the basic owners manual that you get with every Mac, so I don't blame Apple for not putting such basic information on every one of their web pages that references the key.
Well that does a great job of debunking the "macs are intuitive and easy to use" claim. If you have to read the manual then IMHO they're neither. In fact I can't remember the last time I got a new windows based machine that even had a printed manual from Microsoft.

But no that's not the major problem with that page. It's a much deeper usability problem. Imagine you're in my position looking for the command to "Close all windows" you may figure out the problem with it then.


I've been working with macs since the first beige toaster came out and I was an Apple II fan at the time. In highschool we had pretty much no option but macs (and a network administrator who used his last name to protect the entire districts network...but that's another story.) College again it was all macs in VisCom. Yet oddly enough all these mac zealots in school who would tell me over and over how much easier their macs were to use but had never tried a windows machine....oddly enough they all loved coming over to use my system when they were on a crunch because in Photoshop and Director that second mouse button makes things SO much quicker and easier. And they didn't have any problems doing anything else on a windows machine either.

OSX has a lot of nice things going for it. I do agree. But the overall user experience still leaves me pulling out my hair and frustrated that the computer is trying to force me to do things it's way instead of giving me the options to do things my way. Not everyone thinks and works alike and a well designed UI acknowledges that and is flexible enough to support everyone.

So...once again. Anyone know what's so wrong with that page?

User avatar
Intelliduner
6th Gear "Wide Open" Member
6th Gear "Wide Open" Member
Posts: 1018
Joined: Fri Nov 24, 2000 3:02 pm
antispam: NO
Please enter the middle number: 7
Location: USA

Post by Intelliduner »

jhitesma wrote: Intelli, what I double clicked was part of my selection.
What did you have selected? Docs in the Finder? Something within a specific app?

I've accidentally done a Get Info command on several files on my desktop, opening up many info windows. Not so many that I bothered to look up how to close them all at once, though :wink:
jhitesma wrote:And having to use ANY key no matter how simple to perform a mouse function is just plain and simple broken. You should have to use two hands to do what can easily be done with one on a properly designed system.
How do you select mutliple, noncontiguous files in Windows with just the mouse? Doesn't it require ctrl-click or alt-click keyboard combinations?
jhitesma wrote:And yes windows does offer keyboard options. But they're standardized options that have been around for a LONG time and work on windows systems, older dos systems, Unix systems and just about anything else you can come across. Even copy and paste mac moved to the most confusing key on the keyboard....if you're going to make "Command" a little squiggle then show it as a little squiggle and don't just expect people intuitively learn that the squiggle means command - because that ain't intuitive.
Apple (not Mac) didn't move copy and paste keyboard commands. They were always linked to the Command key. Just like nearly all Mac keyboard shortcuts are linked to the Command key. And have been, I believe, since the first Mac.

Agreed, the squiggle symbol is not in the least bit intuitive as meaning "command" (same goes for the Apple symbol on that same key). But, to the complete computer neophyte (there are few left, my mom having only recently graduated out of such in the past few months) there are many things about computers regardless of OS that are not the least bit intuitive. Just a fact of life.

jhitesma wrote:
Maybe the fact that it doesn't tell you which key is the "command" key? True, but I believe that is in the basic owners manual that you get with every Mac, so I don't blame Apple for not putting such basic information on every one of their web pages that references the key.
Well that does a great job of debunking the "macs are intuitive and easy to use" claim. If you have to read the manual then IMHO they're neither. In fact I can't remember the last time I got a new windows based machine that even had a printed manual from Microsoft.
You're speaking from the position of extensive experience using computers. Sure, you don't need a manual. But some folks might. The only printed manuals the new Macs come with are a brief "Welcome to Tiger" book that mainly just highlights the available apps (for which more in depth user guides are available as PDFs from the Help menu in each app) and a modest sized manual that explains the hardware and basic setup procedures.
jhitesma wrote:But no that's not the major problem with that page. It's a much deeper usability problem. Imagine you're in my position looking for the command to "Close all windows" you may figure out the problem with it then.
Well, you're correct. I'm not seeing it. The answer looks clear to me, at least for Finder windows: cmd-opt-w. You still haven't clarified whether you opened windows in the Finder or within an app, though. If they are within an app, then that command may not apply. The app itself may have a 'close all' option but you'd have to look in the File menu for that app.
jhitesma wrote:OSX has a lot of nice things going for it. I do agree. But the overall user experience still leaves me pulling out my hair and frustrated that the computer is trying to force me to do things it's way instead of giving me the options to do things my way. Not everyone thinks and works alike and a well designed UI acknowledges that and is flexible enough to support everyone.


Exactly, and no OS is perfectly flexible. They both have their plusses, they both have their minuses. And the more experience you gain with them, the more intuitive they seem. Whatever you are most comfortable and productive in using is the right OS for you, but that does not make the alternatives inferior. I use both OSes on a daily basis and I prefer Mac, but I'm not going to argue that it is superior across the board. I can say that the OS X has been far more stable than any other Windows OS I've ever used, but XP is much more stable IMO than its predecessors (and OS X is much more stable than any of its predecessors).

_d

crash
7th Gear "No Brakes" Member
7th Gear "No Brakes" Member
Posts: 3915
Joined: Mon May 20, 2002 7:31 pm
Please enter the middle number: 5
Location: USA

Post by crash »

Ahhh yes... the old, "Do I learn English(Windows) or do I learn French(Mac) or Italian(UNIX)?" question.
AN ANALOGY:Since English(Windows) is understood in 80% of the countries you or I would want to talk to someone in, my vote is for English(Windows). Why would one choose any other language? Especially if one is an inexperienced communicator(user).
Do these other languages have thier place in the world? Of course they do, I just would rather know the "universal language." (Windows that is, not the horizontal mombo--get your mind out of the gutter. Wait that was me that said that....whatever)

Post Reply

Return to “Wide Open Sand”