So, What was the count?

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So, What was the count?

Post by OBSESSED »

I may have been on vacation, and missed this, but if you could point me where I can find info...

The UDG did a fly over count of the ISDRA and I would like to know how many they counted.

Also, I would like to know the BLM counts for this same weekend for the same time frame [2007].
And
the BLM counts for this weekend for 2006/2005/ and 2004...
The information is some where, who's got it?

Also what was the BLM counts for the entire season.
How many weekend passes bought, and yearly passes bought.

These numbers to me are the most important numbers for the ISDRA.
The correct counts should control the BLM's budget. I want the deficit spending done by the managers of the ISDRA to stop, NOW...

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Post by LoBuck »

I don't believe the complete report for the UDG flyover have been released to the public yet. There were a few numbers being talked about. I'm sure we'll be hearing about the UDG report and the BLM numbers at the July 13 TRT meeting in San Diego.
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Post by Doc »

The counting of the primary vehicles from the aerial photographs has not been completed yet. This process is time consuming as one must try and discern between the buggies, trailers, motor homes and regular cars to get an accurate count of the primary vehicles. A bid to complete this work is currently being evaluated so hopefully we will have this data by the TRT meeting on July 13th.

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Post by RX 4 INSANDITY »

This process is time consuming as one must try and discern between the buggies, trailers, motor homes and regular cars to get an accurate count of the primary vehicles.
Doc, I always like your no BS answers, but on this one?? :shock: 8)

How long can it take :?: IT IS AN ESTIMATE!!! The whole approach is a "measure with a micrometer and wack it with an az" approach. This could not possibly take, even a government worker, more than a week. :shock: :P

Its called priorities. It just has not been a priority. :shock: :shock: :x
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Post by Vincent J Brunasso »

RX 4 INSANDITY wrote:
This process is time consuming as one must try and discern between the buggies, trailers, motor homes and regular cars to get an accurate count of the primary vehicles.
Doc, I always like your no BS answers, but on this one?? :shock: 8)

How long can it take :?: IT IS AN ESTIMATE!!! The whole approach is a "measure with a micrometer and wack it with an az" approach. This could not possibly take, even a government worker, more than a week. :shock: :P

Its called priorities. It just has not been a priority. :shock: :shock: :x
I have seen the images. They will be very time consuming to count. I'm gonna take up for Doc on this one and call no BS here.
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Post by Doc »

RX 4 INSANDITY wrote:
How long can it take :?: IT IS AN ESTIMATE!!! The whole approach is a "measure with a micrometer and wack it with an az" approach. This could not possibly take, even a government worker, more than a week. :shock: :P
What we are trying to do with this data is come up with something that is more than just an “estimate”. We are having each photograph analyzed to come up with a count of the number of primary vehicles. As you may already realize that requires that each photograph be looked at and each primary vehicle numbered so as to not double count it. In areas like Gordon’s well that is necessary due to the large number of camps in close proximity to each other and no landmarks to identify with. You are right that this should not take more than a week but the challenge was to get funding to do this work and find someone to do it. The cost of the photography was no small deal either.

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Post by Vincent J Brunasso »

I don't know how many pix we have exactly - probably around 50 or so.

I'm uploading just 3 so you can get an idea what we are up against. They are 114Mb each - some are 125Mb - I don't know if you will be able to download them or not.

They are .TIF format and will open with Photoshop. They should be done uploading by 10PM CA time.


Give it a shot:
http://files.americansandassociation.or ... er/104.tif

http://files.americansandassociation.or ... er/103.tif

http://files.americansandassociation.or ... er/102.tif
Last edited by Vincent J Brunasso on Thu Jun 28, 2007 9:59 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by Vincent J Brunasso »

Make that 11:30...
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Post by azsandrider »

So I drive my RV & Trailer to the dune and camp and my wife follows me with our pickup truck so we can go into town...There is only the two of us.

How will that be counted?

There are a lot of people that bring second vehicles, or even third vehicles and each will have a single person driving down alone.....


We actually need 'census takers' on the ground going camp to camp at dinner time to see how many people area there....but this will take A LOT of money to do it right as we would need hundreds of census takers to contact camps all at the same time to get a baseline sampling.....
(The above statement is my own opinion and not that of the ASA's.)

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Post by azsandrider »

Vince, why didn't you convert the tif file to a jpeg so it would down load faster???
(The above statement is my own opinion and not that of the ASA's.)

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Post by Vincent J Brunasso »

azsandrider wrote:Vince, why didn't you convert the tif file to a jpeg so it would down load faster???
There is a reason the service used TIF -don't know what it is. I tried with PS and was unsuccessful.
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Post by BHenry »

Vincent J Brunasso wrote:
azsandrider wrote:Vince, why didn't you convert the tif file to a jpeg so it would down load faster???
There is a reason the service used TIF -don't know what it is. I tried with PS and was unsuccessful.
TIF is a much more high-res format than jpeg (which is incredibly lossy). I am downloading the pics now, and I will see if I can make them more web friendly without losing the overall impression.
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Post by Doc »

azsandrider wrote:So I drive my RV & Trailer to the dune and camp and my wife follows me with our pickup truck so we can go into town...There is only the two of us.

How will that be counted?
From my perspective the goal of this exercise is not to count people but to count primary vehicles.

Each primary vehicle requires a pass, either a weekly or yearly pass, so to accurately be able to verify pass compliance we need to know how many primary vehicles are at the ISDRA, on a yearly basis. There are axle counters, but they count everything and cannot discern a vehicle that is going to town and then returns so we need an adjustment factor to apply to the axle count data to come up with a more accurate primary vehicle count. One way to do this is analyzing the photographic data and compare it to the axle counters for the same time period.

This why an “estimate” does not satisfy our intent with this project and the number of people is immaterial at this point.

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Post by jhitesma »

BHenry wrote:
Vincent J Brunasso wrote:
azsandrider wrote:Vince, why didn't you convert the tif file to a jpeg so it would down load faster???
There is a reason the service used TIF -don't know what it is. I tried with PS and was unsuccessful.
TIF is a much more high-res format than jpeg (which is incredibly lossy). I am downloading the pics now, and I will see if I can make them more web friendly without losing the overall impression.
TIF is uncompressed. JPEG is lossy, but it's also VERY flexible. A low compression jpeg would be MUCH smaller and the difference would be unnoticable to 99% of the people out there. A high compression jpeg would be a LOT smaller but just about everyone would notice the artifacting...you'd probably be able to get a 140m file down to about 50m or so and would have to zoom in more than 100% to be able to see any difference...even at the pixel level I doubt any untrained eye would be able to see the difference.

PNG is lossless compression - the best of both worlds. You can get a smaller file and still not loose any data.

It's good that they provided uncompressed TIF's....but that doesn't mean you have to stick with that while working with them. Even so 100-200m files aren't that big of a deal to work with when you deal with imagery - before digital cameras became common I used to work with 200-300m TIF's scanned from slides on a daily basis...and that was back in 95 with MUCH slower computers.

FWIW I grabbed the first file but wasn't able to get it open. That was last night though around 11:45 so I'm not sure if Vince was still uploading and I only got part of the file or if the files got corrupted in upload somehow.

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Post by jhitesma »

Must have not been done uploading last night when I grabbed it.

Here's a 200% zoom comparison of various compressions:

Click to view fullsize:
Image

On the left is the original 104M file, in the middle is a Photoshop "8 - High" jpeg, that's about where I normally compress my photos, on the right is a "12 - max" which is the lowest level of JPG compression Photoshop support internally.

The differences are almost unnoticable...in fact for the purpose of counting vehicles you could compress MUCH more as even at the highest level of compression individual vehicles are still 100% visible (though you'd have a much harder time if you were trying to compile a list of makes and models!)

The original file in this case (104) is 113M as the provided TIF.

As a 12-max jpg it would be. 160M (Yep, the compressed version would actually be bigger...that level of compression isn't very efficient!)

As an 8-high jpg it would be 39M

As a 5-medium jpg it would be 19.4M

As a 2-low jpg it would be 8.6M

As a 0-low jpg it would be 4.2M

In fact at the highest compression (0-low) it's small enough to easily be uploaded into the ASA's gallery....so here it is. Not as detailed as the original...but still 100% usable for the purpose of counting primary vehicles.

Click for fullsize:
Image

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Post by jhitesma »

Ok, that low quality fullsize isn't working...not sure why as the gallery had no problems making the smaller resized version from it....but I can't open it in IE, Firefox or get it to upload to my other hosting sites.

I'll try to make a better low quality version later today to share...I just don't have anymore time right now to spend on it.

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Post by RX 4 INSANDITY »

What we are trying to do with this data is come up with something that is more than just an “estimate”. We are having each photograph analyzed to come up with a count of the number of primary vehicles. As you may already realize that requires that each photograph be looked at and each primary vehicle numbered so as to not double count it. ...
The above effort discussed by Doc is the "measure with a micrometer" part. 8) 8)

The "Axe" part is when the BLM or someone guesses at the number per vehicle, and based on this, projects the visitation. :shock: :shock:

The numbers are only as good as the assumptions. I think most of us feel that the 3.5 or so that the BLM has historically used is too high, overstating the visitation (not to mention the double counting by the counters). Just look at some of the historical numbers for Osborne. Overstated by a factor of 20-50 times the actual numbers. :shock: :shock: 8)

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Post by BHenry »

jhitesma wrote:Ok, that low quality fullsize isn't working...not sure why as the gallery had no problems making the smaller resized version from it....but I can't open it in IE, Firefox or get it to upload to my other hosting sites.

I'll try to make a better low quality version later today to share...I just don't have anymore time right now to spend on it.
Thanks for taking care of it Jason. I was on my way out the door when I read this thread this morning.
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Post by jhitesma »

BHenry wrote:
jhitesma wrote:Ok, that low quality fullsize isn't working...not sure why as the gallery had no problems making the smaller resized version from it....but I can't open it in IE, Firefox or get it to upload to my other hosting sites.

I'll try to make a better low quality version later today to share...I just don't have anymore time right now to spend on it.
Thanks for taking care of it Jason. I was on my way out the door when I read this thread this morning.
Well it's not fully taken care of yet. But after the day I had I doubt I'll get to it until tomorrow.

Let's just say that problems with photos uploading as been a theme throughout my day today. Turns out that two new servers I'm provisioning had outdated versions of ImageMagick that were causing problems...never suspected it since they are brand new servers running the latest version of RH linux...but for some reason they've got old outdated versions of IM on them...arrghh.

Then for a totally different project I had to build a page to deal with uploading animated gifs that then need to be automatically resized and automatically placed into a page (so the client can quickly and easily update their site with a copy of their latest print ad)....let's just say that resizing animated gif's is nowhere near as simple as resizing just about any other type of image....espically if they have transparancy in them and the guy who builds them is using some cheap software that fudges on the specs a little.

It's not been a fun day for me with photos!

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Post by OBSESSED »

LoBuck wrote:I don't believe the complete report for the UDG flyover have been released to the public yet. There were a few numbers being talked about. I'm sure we'll be hearing about the UDG report and the BLM numbers at the July 13 TRT meeting in San Diego.
When did every one put their heads way up in a dark place?

Every post after this one [lobucks above post] shows how many of you don't get it!

I am now convinced that those of you that have worked 'so close' with the UDG/BLM/ETC can not now or ever more get this count thing correct!
Image
There are three PCV in these photo's along with an extra vehicle. Now, this extra vehicle may have been a day hiker out on a hike, who's to know... So, count this as 4 PCV's and don't sweat it.
I will start out with an area count, then add all the areas, and presto, you get a count of the whole ISDRA...
I can Count the subjected pictures, get me the pictures, I am interested in giving my time to the counting. No bid required. Get me the pictures and I will give you a number. You must believe my number I give you, and not doubt it at all. For it will be base on a fact that a picture is worth a 1000 words...

I agree with Mike...
I call BS… I don’t think you guys want the counts and I also don’t think you want them compared with the BLM counts from the same days…
Get me the pictures [if you don't trust me ha-ha on you]
I will have a number for you by the TRT meeting. I… Want to do this for you, I really understand the reasons the counts must be as accurate as possible. Getting the correct counts as close as 100% correct or as close as possible is very-very important… I understand… Do You?
I will do it as an anonymous counter, if you like… so you can blame Mr. Anonymous...

And one more thing, this isn’t a Presidential vote recount, there will be no hanging atv’s er a chads…

So since I agree with Mike, and call out loud [and point my finger]
B.S.

Now to call my bluff, send me the pictures...

Ha-ha... ok, my bid is $1.00 to do the count for the UDG... Plus cost of dealing with idiots.... Since idiots don't know they are idiots, you are safe.

You are afraid!

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Post by OBSESSED »

Doc wrote:
RX 4 INSANDITY wrote:
How long can it take :?: IT IS AN ESTIMATE!!! The whole approach is a "measure with a micrometer and wack it with an az" approach. This could not possibly take, even a government worker, more than a week. :shock: :P
What we are trying to do with this data is come up with something that is more than just an “estimate”. We are having each photograph analyzed to come up with a count of the number of primary vehicles. As you may already realize that requires that each photograph be looked at and each primary vehicle numbered so as to not double count it. In areas like Gordon’s well that is necessary due to the large number of camps in close proximity to each other and no landmarks to identify with. You are right that this should not take more than a week but the challenge was to get funding to do this work and find someone to do it. The cost of the photography was no small deal either.
Doc, this is spoken like a true government worker...

Up until know, the BLM counts have been off by 200 to 400%!!! [for some areas]
If you get closer than 10% [off] you will be doing everyone a favor.

I offer my services. To:
Drive to wherever the photos have been printed out.
Pick them up
Organize them as per area.
Do a count of PCV's

It is absured to think that whom ever does the counting will understand what he is counting if he is not a duner or insider.
Hiring an outside accounting firm to count away is a bigger waste of funds that I have never seen.
Count the PCV's and then let you other insiders multiply every PCV by 3.51615 or what ever you want.
Time is wasting
You got my phone numbers...

Enough time [and money] has been wasted...

Let the truth be told...

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Post by Vincent J Brunasso »

Now to call my bluff, send me the pictures...
Its not about calling your bluff, its about getting a good count - where do you want the DVDs sent? I'll help you in any way I can. Let's get together for a day.

PM me. Email me. Call me. You've got all the numbers - you know how to find me. Git 'er done!
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Post by OBSESSED »

Vincent J Brunasso wrote:
Now to call my bluff, send me the pictures...
Its not about calling your bluff, its about getting a good count -
That was a nice, no, a very nice way of telling me to **** ***...

Classic, so when will your "Good" count be completed?
This is [one of the most] important issue's at the ISDRA...

My offer stands, get me printed pictures or the ISDRA, and I will devote night and day until your [my] count is complete...
Maybe... It won't be a
good count
Quoting Vince here...

So, what is your idea of a good count?

So, if your Idea of a good count is one that you must pay a lot of money for, then fine... I will do the count for $10,000!
Then gladly send the ASA a check for $9,999!

More tomorrow...

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Post by jhitesma »

Steve, he did offer to send you the DVD with the images so I wouldn't say that sounds like "**** ***"

These would pretty much have to be worked with digitally. Those close-ups I used for quality comparision are 200% zooms....the full image is MUCH larger (can you even spot the 4 vehicles in my zoom in the full image I posted.)

Printed out you'd be looking at about a 8'x8' image to get the same 200% size in my little quality comparision. A print that size is not only very hard to find but you're also looking at around $250 for the print ($3.75 per sq.ft is the cheapest I've found.)

And that's just one photo that seems to cover most (but not all) of the flats at Gordon's well.

I don't think Vince is telling you to take a hike...he's saying contact him and he'll send you the DVD with the files so you can count. You don't need photoshop to open these files - any image viewer that will read TIF will work...irfanview and lview are two popular ones that would work just fine.

If you take Vince up on that and want to get prints made try http://www.perfectposters.com I'm giving away one of my big secrets here by posting them (they're who I use for my huge murals) but what the heck. They're the best price I've found on VERY large prints. But be warned...even they have limitations. You'd have to cut these files in two to get them printed since their printer can't do something 8'x8'. And even at that size you'd probably still have a harder time counting individual vehicles than doing it on the computer.

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Post by Mike330R »

Interesting thread. I would also love to hear these numbers and would even volunteer to help with a count (wow).

If it were me I would cut each picture into 4-8 smaller pic's and count that way.
Mike

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Post by OBSESSED »

Mike330R wrote: If it were me I would cut each picture into 4-8 smaller pic's and count that way.
I agree except, a
8 X 11 would be fine, however, some one says printing them would be to costly.
The pix need to be printed even if the PCV are the size of [.] period on a computer... I have lighted mag light which would work great for this...

It will be close to impossible for someone that does not dune to count these computer disk's

you ned to be able to highlight each or check off each PVC counted, co you do not go over and over.... and over counting 3 or 4 times for same vehicle...

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Post by azsandrider »

I've never heard the results of the 'fly over' count...

Has this been resolved and what was the results?

Or are they STILL counting??? :shock: :?

:D
(The above statement is my own opinion and not that of the ASA's.)

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Post by Sloppyduner »

azsandrider wrote:I've never heard the results of the 'fly over' count...

Has this been resolved and what was the results?

Or are they STILL counting??? :shock: :?

:D
:-$ Don't make em look up!!! They'll lose their place and have to start over. #-o
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Image

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Post by MR. PETE »

Sloppyduner wrote:
azsandrider wrote:I've never heard the results of the 'fly over' count...

Has this been resolved and what was the results?

Or are they STILL counting??? :shock: :?

:D
:-$ Don't make em look up!!! They'll lose their place and have to start over. #-o
I know that this is not a laughing matter, but that there is funny!

:lol: :lol:


Actually, I have been given some inside information through an operative working covert, deep inside the government. This information gives specific information as to who is heading up the team that is doing the primary vehicle counts at the ISDRA.

Perhaps knowing who the team leader is that's responsible for the counts at the ISDRA will provide a level of comfort and confidence in the system that was here-to-fore elusive for many.

The following is his impressive resume for your consideration.

Code: Select all

Count Von Count - In 1972, the children's program SESAME STREET/PBS/1969+ introduced their muppet version of Dracula called Count Von Count who was fashioned after the classic Bela Lugosi characterization complete with a Transylvanian accent. Of course, his obsession wasn't with sucking blood but rather counting numbers. As he often said "I love to count! 1,2,3,4,..." He once went to his bank and withdrew his entire account asking the teller to give him only one dollar bills. After all of the money had been counted, he re-deposited the money, gleefully counting the money over again in front of the perplexed bank teller. Count Von Count counted only to 20 at first. In 1986 he took viewers up to 40 to find the cookbook page with a recipe for peanut butter and jelly sandwiches. 
I hear that he is well beyond 40 now.

He is perfect for the job because he loves to count things more than once.
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Post by WoodIsGood »

And the count was????

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Post by realbadlarry »

126,235 5/16. Wasn't that hard at all.

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Post by Woodglue »

ok, this begs the question...

and 5/16? :?
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Post by r erfert »

Woodglue wrote:ok, this begs the question...

and 5/16? :?
that person must have been burried up to their neck in debt :lol: :?: and only waranted a 5/16 count :?:

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Post by crash »

All joking aside, so now we have a "real" number. What was the BLM estimate for that same weekend?

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Post by crash »

Anyone? Anyone? :roll:

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Post by Woodglue »

If I recall, the number was previously posted on this bbs. Maybe you can look for it?
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Post by crash »

Well, that was one of the original questions and it was never answered that I can see in this thread. Even the dates that this flyover was done are not given. It's pretty hard to search with so little info. If whoever is in the know about the dates and even the other "estimate" by BLM, that would be great. If all that I could get is the date, then I'll work from there, but I need SOMETHING to go on.

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Post by crash »

What am I missing? Someone please slap me in the face as to why this number means nothing, all of a sudden, to anyone on here.

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Post by Woodglue »

I don't know crash, I've been looking for a BLM number too and maybe I was wrong, as I can't find it.
The ASA Newsletter had a looong write up about this, but the number was never given. The article stated that Mike Morgan assisted with the count.
I havn't been a member of this board long eough to know who realbadlarry is.
realbadlarry wrote:126,235 5/16. Wasn't that hard at all.
Larry, were you involved in the counting? And, was this the final number?

crash, maybe the TRT has a ISCO/BLM Number? :?
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Post by LoBuck »

Woodglue wrote:I havn't been a member of this board long eough to know who realbadlarry is.
realbadlarry wrote:126,235 5/16. Wasn't that hard at all.
Larry, were you involved in the counting? And, was this the final number?

crash, maybe the TRT has a ISCO/BLM Number? :?
I'm pretty sure that RBL was making a joke. Hence the 5/16 comment :wink:

The TRT has not been given the count from the UDG. Last I heard they were still verifying everything.. of course that was months ago. :? :-k
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Post by BHenry »

LoBuck wrote:
Woodglue wrote:I havn't been a member of this board long eough to know who realbadlarry is.
realbadlarry wrote:126,235 5/16. Wasn't that hard at all.
Larry, were you involved in the counting? And, was this the final number?

crash, maybe the TRT has a ISCO/BLM Number? :?
I'm pretty sure that RBL was making a joke. Hence the 5/16 comment :wink:

The TRT has not been given the count from the UDG. Last I heard they were still verifying everything.. of course that was months ago. :? :-k
I know for sure Larry was making a joke :lol:
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Post by crash »

So there has been NOTHING produced by the flyover pics and counting, etc. almost three months after the first post of this thread was made??? :shock: :? :evil:

What gives? Surely SOMEONE must have some better info/updates.???

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Post by LoBuck »

crash wrote:So there has been NOTHING produced by the flyover pics and counting, etc. almost three months after the first post of this thread was made??? :shock: :? :evil:

What gives? Surely SOMEONE must have some better info/updates.???
There is someone that has info, but no one can give it out until someone says so. No, I'm not someone ...and quit calling me Shirley. :wink: :lol:

Seriously though, the info is there, it just has not been released beyond certain people. I have no idea at this point what is being waited on.
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Post by Jerry Seaver »

I've been told that the flyover counts from last year are only one part of a report that Dr. Haas is doing for the UDG on visitation. They are planning to do one or maybe two more flyovers this season. These flyover counts are only one part of a report that Dr. Haas is doing for the UDG. There are other information and studies that are being done at the same time, they probably won't release anything until the report is completed.

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Post by crash »

Jerry Seaver wrote:I've been told that the flyover counts from last year are only one part of a report that Dr. Haas is doing for the UDG on visitation. They are planning to do one or maybe two more flyovers this season. These flyover counts are only one part of a report that Dr. Haas is doing for the UDG. There are other information and studies that are being done at the same time, they probably won't release anything until the report is completed.
Huh. That would have been useful info early on in this thread, but thanks for sharing......finally. So when is this UDG/Haas report due out?

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Post by Jerry Seaver »

Huh. That would have been useful info early on in this thread, but thanks for sharing......finally. So when is this UDG/Haas report due out?
I got the information by asking the UDG when they planned on releasing any numbers from their flyovers. They didn't know exactly because it is just one tool Dr. Haas is using to collect information for his report. This is a on going study being done with a concluesion wrote by Dr. Haas and some University, I wouldn't expect anything soon. I'm not sure whether it is a one year study or more.

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Post by crash »

Jerry Seaver wrote:
Huh. That would have been useful info early on in this thread, but thanks for sharing......finally.
I just reread my post and wanted you to understand I didn't mean that as a personal attack or anything. I know you do your best to keep others informed and up to date. Thanks for the info.

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Post by Havaduner »

I can understand that this info may be part of a larger ongoing project, but there seems to be a lot of interest in this number. Why is it such a secret?

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Post by Jerry Seaver »

Why is it such a secret?
I asked about releasing the numbers for the last flyover and they feel it is just one snap shot with many varibles that need to be verified and repeated. Dr. Haas doesn't want pieces of information released without all the information of how it fits with visitation patterns and the other things that he is working on in this report. They want the information to be credible when released. So I guess we will just have to wait for the report and see how it all ties in.

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Post by crash »

OK, I think what all of us are wondering is.........are the estimates by BLM even remotely close to reality as evidenced by this flyover count? Can we just get a "yes" or "no" on this one question? If it's no can we get which way the error is by BLM?

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