Not given up wanting to fight. Just not convinced there's anyone organized fighting the same fight. But that's off topic for this discussion and more than I want to get into here.L&L Corvairs wrote:Wow. And wow again.
Obviously, Jason, you’ve given up.
Keep an eye in the for sale section. Once I get it cleaned up enough to sell my rail will be in there. I'll still have my manx. But the rail is too sand specific to justify. Don't see how I can justify the cost of one pass next year let alone two given how little we go out there thanks to the way things have been going the past few years. Can't give up fighting though because the hard pack will be next. Right now going to visit the dunes is about as much fun as going to visit a big city - for many of the same reasons.If I were to adopt your logic, then I should sell my toys and find a new pastime.
Really? How many more decades do you think that will take? It's MUCH more likely that this will continue to be tied up in the courts for years than there is that a RAMP will ever actually get approved let alone implemented.Eventually, there WILL be a RAMP. Even you have to admit that, Jason.
I've met and spoken with both of them. I also believe they're earnestly trying to do their best job and are open to input from anyone who cares. But also don't think that matters and they know it doesn't matter because it WILL end up back in court no matter how good or bad of a job they do.I can’t speak for Neil or Erin, and I’m sure they will never respond here, but I have spent some time talking with them. They are, IMO, earnestly trying to do the best job they can, and it is to Erin’s committee that our recommendations are going to be evaluated.
That's the way the process is supposed to work. It's even what the law says. It's even mostly what happens. But it still doesn't reflect reality. Because of the lawsuits and courts.And I’ll be honest. I believe them when they tell us that they will look at every comment they get back. That doesn’t mean any of them will be incorporated. But that is the way the process works.
Agreed 100%. Though I'd probably go further still and say the entire DoI needs to be restarted from a clean slate.We can’t fault the BLM, or it’s employees for running the ‘process’. We can’t fault the BLM for the process. Or the FWS. That was created by Congress. It’s taken us 10yrs to get HERE, with, in reality, very little $$$. I’m all for changing the ‘process’, for changing the ESA and for throwing out the supposedly corrupt people involved. Show me that plan and I’ll be the first to sign up. But there isn’t any such plan, nor any organized group to try it. And even it there was, how many years would it take and would it even be successful?
To me the dunes are already mostly lost. It's now more restrictive and limited to go there on vacation than to just stay home. It's not getting away from anything - it's getting into it thicker than it is at home. With the changes proposed in Alt 8 and the justification for them it's obvious that what I like about camping in general is being pushed out of the dunes. The self-sufficient primitive camper is being pushed out and it's only a matter of time before the dunes become a concession run like the national parks.But I’m not ready to give up or sell my toys. Yeah, I’m prepared to accept that we are not going to get every last inch back that was closed. Because like the internet and cell phones, that’s just the facts of life, folks. Should we quit trying because there is the possibility that it doesn’t matter? Jason’s same arguments can be used to justify not voting in the next election, too. Again, that’s a personal choice. For me, I can’t quit that easily. The last dog ain’t been hung yet, nor has the fat lady sung yet.
Given that as the position to argue from. I don't see anything left for us to loose by putting everything on the table. Alt 1 is the only thing I see even remotely worth actually considering discussing as a possibility. And even that feels like a compromise...and of course would end up in court.
There may be 8 alternatives but there are only three ways things can go in the end:Guess that’s why I still vote in every election. My opinion is: If you ain’t participating, (like, say voting) then you don’t have a right to complain about the outcome. And right now, that participation is sending in data backed comments on the DRAMP. Hopefully, by doing as much as I can, my grandchildren, who are now 2, 4 and 5, will have the most open area in the ISDRA to ride in, when they are ready.
1) The CBD feels too much is given to us and goes back to court.
2) We feel we loose too much and go back to court.
Any other alternatives simply aren't going to happen. There is very little grey here and no common ground. If either side doesn't take an extreme enough view they will loose all of their support so they have to take a side.
I want to give you that tenner so bad. [-o<
