DRAMP/RAMP Comments

Comments and discussion on the ISDRA Draft EIS and Draft Rec Area Mgt Plan

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Re: DRAMP/RAMP Comments

Post by jhitesma » Mon Apr 19, 2010 3:33 pm

L&L Corvairs wrote:Wow. And wow again.

Obviously, Jason, you’ve given up.
Not given up wanting to fight. Just not convinced there's anyone organized fighting the same fight. But that's off topic for this discussion and more than I want to get into here.
If I were to adopt your logic, then I should sell my toys and find a new pastime.
Keep an eye in the for sale section. Once I get it cleaned up enough to sell my rail will be in there. I'll still have my manx. But the rail is too sand specific to justify. Don't see how I can justify the cost of one pass next year let alone two given how little we go out there thanks to the way things have been going the past few years. Can't give up fighting though because the hard pack will be next. Right now going to visit the dunes is about as much fun as going to visit a big city - for many of the same reasons.
Eventually, there WILL be a RAMP. Even you have to admit that, Jason.
Really? How many more decades do you think that will take? It's MUCH more likely that this will continue to be tied up in the courts for years than there is that a RAMP will ever actually get approved let alone implemented.
I can’t speak for Neil or Erin, and I’m sure they will never respond here, but I have spent some time talking with them. They are, IMO, earnestly trying to do the best job they can, and it is to Erin’s committee that our recommendations are going to be evaluated.
I've met and spoken with both of them. I also believe they're earnestly trying to do their best job and are open to input from anyone who cares. But also don't think that matters and they know it doesn't matter because it WILL end up back in court no matter how good or bad of a job they do.
And I’ll be honest. I believe them when they tell us that they will look at every comment they get back. That doesn’t mean any of them will be incorporated. But that is the way the process works.
That's the way the process is supposed to work. It's even what the law says. It's even mostly what happens. But it still doesn't reflect reality. Because of the lawsuits and courts.

We can’t fault the BLM, or it’s employees for running the ‘process’. We can’t fault the BLM for the process. Or the FWS. That was created by Congress. It’s taken us 10yrs to get HERE, with, in reality, very little $$$. I’m all for changing the ‘process’, for changing the ESA and for throwing out the supposedly corrupt people involved. Show me that plan and I’ll be the first to sign up. But there isn’t any such plan, nor any organized group to try it. And even it there was, how many years would it take and would it even be successful?
Agreed 100%. Though I'd probably go further still and say the entire DoI needs to be restarted from a clean slate.
But I’m not ready to give up or sell my toys. Yeah, I’m prepared to accept that we are not going to get every last inch back that was closed. Because like the internet and cell phones, that’s just the facts of life, folks. Should we quit trying because there is the possibility that it doesn’t matter? Jason’s same arguments can be used to justify not voting in the next election, too. Again, that’s a personal choice. For me, I can’t quit that easily. The last dog ain’t been hung yet, nor has the fat lady sung yet.
To me the dunes are already mostly lost. It's now more restrictive and limited to go there on vacation than to just stay home. It's not getting away from anything - it's getting into it thicker than it is at home. With the changes proposed in Alt 8 and the justification for them it's obvious that what I like about camping in general is being pushed out of the dunes. The self-sufficient primitive camper is being pushed out and it's only a matter of time before the dunes become a concession run like the national parks.

Given that as the position to argue from. I don't see anything left for us to loose by putting everything on the table. Alt 1 is the only thing I see even remotely worth actually considering discussing as a possibility. And even that feels like a compromise...and of course would end up in court.
Guess that’s why I still vote in every election. My opinion is: If you ain’t participating, (like, say voting) then you don’t have a right to complain about the outcome. And right now, that participation is sending in data backed comments on the DRAMP. Hopefully, by doing as much as I can, my grandchildren, who are now 2, 4 and 5, will have the most open area in the ISDRA to ride in, when they are ready.
There may be 8 alternatives but there are only three ways things can go in the end:

1) The CBD feels too much is given to us and goes back to court.
2) We feel we loose too much and go back to court.

Any other alternatives simply aren't going to happen. There is very little grey here and no common ground. If either side doesn't take an extreme enough view they will loose all of their support so they have to take a side.

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Re: DRAMP/RAMP Comments

Post by Woodglue » Mon Apr 19, 2010 5:22 pm

My typical Monday, catching up on a weekend of BBS activity and I come across this....
jhitesma wrote:Honestly I see absolutely no reason to get involved in the comment BS again this time.
... and my blood is boiling before I can finish reading the post.
As we try to gain the interest of other people, seek the involvement of more groups and Orgs, phone calls, text messages, e-mails... I read this crap???
YOU SIR ARE THE PROBLEM!
An ASA Member and Volunteer, coming on an ASA Website and spilling this unfounded babble! Have you any idea what you are undoing by doing this?
jhitesma wrote:Why?
It doesn't matter "why?" you think this way.

You smear our efforts?
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Re: DRAMP/RAMP Comments

Post by jhitesma » Mon Apr 19, 2010 7:45 pm

Woodglue wrote: You smear our efforts?
Your efforts are well intentioned and by no means do I wish to smear them. I just see no reason to believe that they will amount to any different outcome than we've seen in the past. It's not your fault, and your efforts are good. But that doesn't change what the end result will be.

I've been through this process with a RAMP for the dunes twice now. How many times do we have to go through the same motions with the same results before finally realizing that no matter how many times we go through them we're going to keep getting the same results.

Not trying to put anyones efforts down. Just pointing out that the system is broken and it doesn't matter what the scoping process comes up with this is all going to be decided by a judge who likely isn't favorable to our cause.

Considering that the ASA is bigger now but seems to be doing less actual organizing of the troops to address this does give me a bit of hope in that it seems to indicate that at least the leadership realizes that the RAMP process is a mere formality and it's the courts that will really decide what happens in the dunes.

I'm not trying to get anyone to stop fighting. Just trying to get people to stop and look at history and think about whether there may be a better way to achieve our goals.

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Re: DRAMP/RAMP Comments

Post by sticksand » Tue Apr 20, 2010 12:09 pm

If not for the ASA I could almost bet there would of been ALOT more closures than what we have now!!
BRRRRAAAAAP!!

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Re: DRAMP/RAMP Comments

Post by L&L Corvairs » Tue Apr 20, 2010 3:17 pm

All I can say Jason, is based on my BOD experience, I have faith that eventually, the BLM will 'get it right'. And this DRAMP looks like they've done a much better job of 'getting it right'.

Se la vie.
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Re: DRAMP/RAMP Comments

Post by Woodglue » Tue Apr 20, 2010 3:24 pm

Yes, along with my rolling eyes, I too can say Se la vie.

Now, with everyone's feelings on the table, I propose that we climb this digressive thread back to a progressive topic...


....."DRAMP/RAMP Comments" =D>
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Re: DRAMP/RAMP Comments

Post by MattV » Tue Apr 20, 2010 8:32 pm

Okay, time to rally the troops. What I am posting is one of the things I keep a copy of at my desk and refer to when things get a little "out of hand". It's one of those things that helps remind me that I'm a warrior, and that regardless of outcome and personal consequence, I have to do what's right, stand up for for the just causes and when necessary quell the unjust. Thank you, William Shakespeare.

For anyone who does not recognize it, this is from Act 4, Scene III of "Henry V", in the English Camp as the king rallies his troops.

WESTMORELAND. O that we now had here
But one ten thousand of those men in England
That do no work to-day!

KING. What's he that wishes so?
My cousin Westmoreland? No, my fair cousin;
If we are mark'd to die, we are enow
To do our country loss; and if to live,
The fewer men, the greater share of honour.
God's will! I pray thee, wish not one man more.
By Jove, I am not covetous for gold,
Nor care I who doth feed upon my cost;
It yearns me not if men my garments wear;
Such outward things dwell not in my desires.
But if it be a sin to covet honour,
I am the most offending soul alive.
No, faith, my coz, wish not a man from England.
God's peace! I would not lose so great an honour
As one man more methinks would share from me
For the best hope I have. O, do not wish one more!
Rather proclaim it, Westmoreland, through my host,
That he which hath no stomach to this fight,
Let him depart; his passport shall be made,
And crowns for convoy put into his purse;
We would not die in that man's company
That fears his fellowship to die with us.
This day is call'd the feast of Crispian.
He that outlives this day, and comes safe home,
Will stand a tip-toe when this day is nam'd,
And rouse him at the name of Crispian.
He that shall live this day, and see old age,
Will yearly on the vigil feast his neighbours,
And say 'To-morrow is Saint Crispian.'
Then will he strip his sleeve and show his scars,
And say 'These wounds I had on Crispian's day.'
Old men forget; yet all shall be forgot,
But he'll remember, with advantages,
What feats he did that day. Then shall our names,
Familiar in his mouth as household words-
Harry the King, Bedford and Exeter,
Warwick and Talbot, Salisbury and Gloucester-
Be in their flowing cups freshly rememb'red.
This story shall the good man teach his son;
And Crispin Crispian shall ne'er go by,
From this day to the ending of the world,
But we in it shall be remembered-
We few, we happy few, we band of brothers;
For he to-day that sheds his blood with me
Shall be my brother; be he ne'er so vile,
This day shall gentle his condition;
And gentlemen in England now-a-bed
Shall think themselves accurs'd they were not here,
And hold their manhoods cheap whiles any speaks
That fought with us upon Saint Crispin's day.
Water is just beer that hasn't reached its full potential.

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Re: DRAMP/RAMP Comments

Post by gelwell » Wed Apr 21, 2010 11:04 am

Matt Really? I think the conversation should be " doth he protest too much". This shakespeare stuff makes my head hurt #-o
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Re: DRAMP/RAMP Comments

Post by Sandcock » Wed Apr 21, 2010 3:01 pm

Looking at Alt 8, it appears as though a line was drawn (imaginary) congruent with the southern boundary of the closed area at Glamis through to the proposed "NO Camping" in the microphyll woodland area starting at Wash 25 going south. I'm wondering if this is is how the northern boundary of the proposed microphyll woodland was established.
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Re: DRAMP/RAMP Comments

Post by MattV » Wed Apr 21, 2010 6:46 pm

That would make sense, and would go along with the apparent goal of closing off the microphyl woodland...
Water is just beer that hasn't reached its full potential.

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Re: DRAMP/RAMP Comments

Post by Mean Green » Fri Apr 30, 2010 3:40 am

I know the meetings have come and gone but for those of you that were unable to attend here is the BLM link to the Powerer Point they presented us.

Whats New April 2010
http://www.blm.gov/ca/st/en/fo/elcentro ... dnews.html

If you were not there to submit comments but would still like to, you have until 06/23/2010 (Comments must be postmarked by this date.)

You may comment via,
E-mail: caisdrmp@ca.blm.gov
Fax: (760) 337-4490
Mail/Hand Deliver to: 1661 So. 4th St., El Centro,California 92243

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Re: DRAMP/RAMP Comments

Post by Woodglue » Fri Apr 30, 2010 1:57 pm

Would you have a different link?
I'm getting an error message on that one. Maybe the BLM site is down?
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Re: DRAMP/RAMP Comments

Post by Vincent J Brunasso » Fri Apr 30, 2010 8:14 pm

Vincent J. Brunasso
ASA Co-Founder and past president

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Re: DRAMP/RAMP Comments

Post by HSSC » Sat May 08, 2010 10:12 pm

Jason Hitesman is very close to the target on his assessment. From what I have read, the government doesn't want to here from regular folks, only those with a law degree or a holticulture as a back ground. The rest of us can just go fishing despite the facts and imput from the ASA and its efforts.

Until the politics of this country change, this is the way it will play out, over and over again. That has been my experience going on now for well over fourty years of off-roading.

Closure after Closure. This is nothing new. :roll:

POLITICS IS THE REAL ANSWER
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Re: DRAMP/RAMP Comments

Post by Woodglue » Thu May 13, 2010 1:46 pm

HSSC wrote:From what I have read, the government doesn't want to here from regular folks, only those with a law degree or a holticulture as a back ground.
Please back up your statement HSSC, and show how it's applicable to the ISDRA DRAMP.
Until then, I'll just look at your post as 'something I read on the internet'.
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Re: DRAMP/RAMP Comments

Post by d_sheffs » Thu May 13, 2010 7:23 pm

Jason Hitesman is very close to the target on his assessment. From what I have read, the government doesn't want to here from regular folks, only those with a law degree or a holticulture as a back ground. The rest of us can just go fishing despite the facts and imput from the ASA and its efforts.

Until the politics of this country change, this is the way it will play out, over and over again. That has been my experience going on now for well over fourty years of off-roading.

Closure after Closure. This is nothing new.

POLITICS IS THE REAL ANSWER

x2 :evil: :evil:

the sad reality of the situation. can ANYONE here name an OHV spot (or any public land for that matter) that has been re-opened after some sort of closure, or some sort of ESA habitant was deemed located there?

I hate to think that the "fight is lost" but until greenies no longer have sway or control of higher level politics, than we are dead in the water. I hope to god we make the best of the next election cycle. for me, that is our only real hope. all of the legal manuvering so far has done nothing more than delay judgement day. so keep up the fight, keep what we have left for now.

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Re: DRAMP/RAMP Comments

Post by Woodglue » Fri May 14, 2010 12:25 pm

Man, maybe I just stepped off the short bus, but I don’t get where you guys are coming from.
FACT: Majority of DRAMP Alts have OPEN DUNES that are currently closed.
But, you guys still want to come out and BOO the process and imply that we are “dead in the water” without any substantiation.
I don’t get it.
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Re: DRAMP/RAMP Comments

Post by HSSC » Fri May 14, 2010 9:47 pm

Your review and comments on the content of this document are critical to the success of this planning effort. If you wish to submit comments on the Draft RAMP/EIS, we request that you make your comments as specific as possible. Comments will be more helpful if they include suggested changes, sources, or methodologies, and reference to a section or page number. Comments containing only opinion or preferences will be considered and included as part of the decision making process, although they will not receive a formal response from the BLM. Before including your address, phone number, e-mail address, or other personal identifying information in your comment, be advised that your entire comment, including your personal identifying information, may be made publicly available at any time. While you can ask us in your comment to withhold your personal identifying information from public review, we cannot guarantee that we will be able to do so.

Some place else, someone commented that unless you were real specific with your comments, a persons comments wouldn't hold much water with the BLM. I spent a good number of hours reading over parts of this document, specifically the ones favorable too members of the ASA and the BLM's prefered proposal and came away knowing where a good deal of my tax dollars are wasted.

Having said that, I do understand some of the reasons why the BLM has all these different proposals and that is the fear of more lawsuits, which I think are comming anyway, no matter what happens.
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Re: DRAMP/RAMP Comments

Post by HSSC » Fri May 14, 2010 10:06 pm

For some reason I cannot post long posts so I have to add to the previous post.

For all the work the people from the ASA have put into this effort and for this to be the out come is exasperating to say the least. I can only dread the outcome if there weren't people, like Sloppy Dunner and so many others, working the front line with their free time.

The fact is politics are the root of this whole mess and I see it as the only real way to get back what we once took for granted. The way it looks, we will be loosing more ground ( camping ) but that is still not a done deal. I'd bet a five dollar bill my daughter will never dune the 49'000 acres. And that is a shame cause she is not only a great skiier but also a great dunner.

I really would like to loose that five bucks. [-o<
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Re: DRAMP/RAMP Comments

Post by jhitesma » Sun May 16, 2010 10:42 am

Woodglue wrote: But, you guys still want to come out and BOO the process and imply that we are “dead in the water” without any substantiation.
Having been through the process twice now and still not getting a RAMP isn't substantiation?

Just do a search on here for the last two times there were comment periods on the RAMP. And the blow off responses the BLM gave to the comments. And the fact that in the end none of it mattered because the Courts overruled it and as a result we still don't have a new RAMP and are going through it all again.

It's an oborous designed to keep progress from happening by those who want to turn back time, decivilize humanity, look forward to mass die-offs of humans and would be happier living in mud pits than houses.

The substantiation is right here on this very BBS if you care to do your research and try to learn from history.

Some of us would rather learn from the past than continue to make the same mistakes over and over and keep expecting a different result.

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Re: DRAMP/RAMP Comments

Post by L&L Corvairs » Sun May 16, 2010 4:36 pm

Well, HSSC, I’ll take your bet. If this RAMP get’s through courts without being rejected and forcing us to start over, you pay me $5.00. If the courts reject it, and we have to start over, I pay you $5.00. Though in truth, even if the BLM has to start over, I still believe that eventually, your daughter and even you and I will get to dune in that 49,000 acre temporary closure. No doubt, it will be a few more years. And yes, HSSC I fully expect this RAMP to be contested by the Eco’s. It’s been their pattern so far. You are correct. That is why there are so many alternatives and so much in the ramp. The BLM is, IMO, trying to create a lawsuit proof RAMP. (i.e. one that survives through court, regardless of who sues)

Actually, Jason, I believe the courts have only rejected one RAMP, not two. The current temporary closure in 1999/2000 was a result of the BLM not consulting with FWS and re-doing the 1987 RAMP as they were supposed to. Of course I could be wrong and I’m sure you’ll correct me if I am.

d_sheffs. We have to put aside our anger over the PMV not being delisted. It’s an ESA listed plant for the foreseeable future. In a broader general sense, there are, in fact, truly endangered species. Is it not reasonable that we should take necessary steps to protect those species? This is a YES-NO type question. There really is no other. If your answer is YES, then any management plan of public lands that has ESA listed species must make accommodations for that species. So, to answer your question:
d_sheffs wrote: the sad reality of the situation. can ANYONE here name an OHV spot (or any public land for that matter) that has been re-opened after some sort of closure, or some sort of ESA habitant was deemed located there?
NO. Nothing has ever been reopened. Once a species that is found in an OHV area is ESA listed, we WILL lose some or ALL of that riding area to protect that species. It’s as simple as that.

There are some things we can do.

1. First and foremost, stay organized and stay on top of your favorite riding area. Do proactive good, reliable science so that there is decent data for FWS to use when the Eco’s file to list some beastie or plant. In other words, be proactive and keep species from being ESA listed.

2. Agreed. The ESA needs to be change. On THAT, HSSC, I’ll bet YOU $100 that it never happens in the next 15yrs. Which is how long I estimate that I’ll be OHV riding before I quit. Sure, it’s all about politics, but the United States of America has moved too far into socialism. Today’s so called ‘conservatives’ are really just mildly conservative liberals. The ESA won’t be fixed. Not only not in my life time, but never.

3. Keep fighting. And train your children and grandchildren to continue fighting after we are gone. Remember, the Eco’s have been at this for 40yrs now. We have only been at it 10. They are working on their 2nd or 3rd generation. We are on our first. It’s up to us to pass the fire and drive on. If we quit fighting, they win.

4. Jason, I agree with your assessment re-the Eco-Socialists/Communists. They’re elitist beliefs that most of humanity should be killed off. However, I don’t think they’ll win THAT. If they do, I’m reasonably sure it also won’t happen in my lifetime or yours.

5. In the mean time, the RAMP process is what we have right now, TODAY that will get us those temporary closures opened soonest. We lost at delisting. This is our next best opportunity. I fail to see how participating is a bad thing. If we fail, what have we really lost? Some time? Some effort? Some money? So what? I’d rather try, and lose, then lose by default. By doing nothing.
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Re: DRAMP/RAMP Comments

Post by HSSC » Sun May 16, 2010 9:19 pm

L&L That is a very good post. The real winners in the lawsuits are the lawyers because they get their money and the CBD gets reimbursement, we get vapor trails and if were really good lollipops from another world.

Holly smokes, a change in the ESA! Remember, Mr. Corvair, I'm from Nevada and I know a thing or two about a sure bet. I will say this though, If the ESA were to be changed into a more realistic law, I'll travel anywhere to celebrate with people of a like mind and I'll buy the whisky and lobster, yes, lobster with salted butter. =D>
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Re: DRAMP/RAMP Comments

Post by L&L Corvairs » Mon May 17, 2010 10:11 am

HSSC wrote: Holly smokes, a change in the ESA! Remember, Mr. Corvair, I'm from Nevada and I know a thing or two about a sure bet.

Crap.
I was so hoping you'd bite on that one.
:lol: :lol: :lol:


But since you be from Nevada, how about we take that $5.00 one on the RAMP and make it $100?
L&L
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Re: DRAMP/RAMP Comments

Post by d_sheffs » Mon May 17, 2010 2:09 pm

ok so was anyone at the meeting over the weekend at Buckshot with the BLM to give us all the great news for all the area to be opened back up?

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Re: DRAMP/RAMP Comments

Post by HSSC » Mon May 17, 2010 6:59 pm

L&L Corvairs wrote:
HSSC wrote: Holly smokes, a change in the ESA! Remember, Mr. Corvair, I'm from Nevada and I know a thing or two about a sure bet.

Crap.
I was so hoping you'd bite on that one.
:lol: :lol: :lol:


But since you be from Nevada, how about we take that $5.00 one on the RAMP and make it $100?
Knock one of them zeros off and lets go. :D I want to give you that tenner so bad. [-o<
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Re: DRAMP/RAMP Comments

Post by L&L Corvairs » Tue May 18, 2010 9:44 am

HSSC wrote:
L&L Corvairs wrote:
HSSC wrote: Holly smokes, a change in the ESA! Remember, Mr. Corvair, I'm from Nevada and I know a thing or two about a sure bet.

Crap.
I was so hoping you'd bite on that one.
:lol: :lol: :lol:


But since you be from Nevada, how about we take that $5.00 one on the RAMP and make it $100?
Knock one of them zeros off and lets go. :D I want to give you that tenner so bad. [-o<

DEAL!!! :mrgreen:
L&L
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Re: DRAMP/RAMP Comments

Post by Woodglue » Tue May 18, 2010 1:10 pm

d_sheffs wrote:ok so was anyone at the meeting over the weekend at Buckshot with the BLM ....?
I've been wondering the same. :?
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Re: DRAMP/RAMP Comments

Post by Sloppyduner » Tue May 18, 2010 1:38 pm

I can't do it justice. Look for it in the Whats New coming out. I think it'll be in there. Also I think there will be some GREAT stuff from Vince and Dick linked to this site.
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Re: DRAMP/RAMP Comments

Post by Woodglue » Wed Jun 02, 2010 5:58 pm

From Renewable Energy World.com:
Southwestern US Prepares for Geothermal Energy
Land leases and streamlined permitting open up the possibility of more geothermal energy coming soon to the region.
by Charles W. Thurston, Contributor
Published: June 2, 2010

California, United States -- Government preparations for geothermal land leasing and for project environmental studies are progressing in California, thanks to coordinated efforts by a host of federal, state and local authorities.

Around 300 MW of geothermal projects are in early stages of permitting across five areas of the California deserts now, and in the Salton Sea alone, another 2,000 MW are very possible, given the 650°F saline water temperature there.

The U.S. Bureau of Land Management has auctioned off a new round of land leases in the state's hot-rock region in the southwest and three new areas are being prepared for bids. Several more new areas are also being considered for future auctions.

Meanwhile the California Energy Commission recently published a project guidebook, or manual, on environmental review issues for projects being developed in the southwest desert regions.

BLM Opens Bids for 114 parcels

Some 332,000 acres of land under Bureau of Land Management control in Nevada were auctioned on May 12 for geothermal exploration and development. Bidding went as high as $1,000 an acre, which Magma Energy, of Reno, paid for a Churchill County parcel.

Cheryl Seath, a geologist in the Bishop, CA office of BLM, listed he following western California land auctions that are expected soon:

•19,162 acres in the West Chocolate Mountains, southwest of Los Angeles, for which a draft EIS is due by Sept 2010; one lease is pending there.
•6,400 acres in the Superstition Mountings, with the auction dates hampered by a pending Navy use ruling; there are three pending lease applications in the area already.
•22,460 acres in the Haiwee area of Inyo County, CA, for which a draft EIS is due in July. There are already three pending lease applications there, said Seath.
Future areas under consideration for geothermal leases include 72,000 acres, covering 21 specific industry nominations in: the Surprise Valley of Modoc County; Glamis, Imperial County; Randsburg, in Kern County; and Tennant, in Siskiyou County.

Revenues from such geothermal land leases are distributed to the state, which takes 50 percent of proceeds; a reclamation trust fund, which commands a 40 percent share and a federal government cut of 10 percent.

Streamlining California Desert Project Studies

California's Renewable Energy Action Team — composed of the California Energy Commission, California Department of Fish and Game, U.S. Fish and Wildlife Service, and U.S. Bureau of Land Management — recently published an aid to fast-track geothermal project permitting in California's Colorado and Mojave Desert areas. The manual describes best practices for siting and designing a project, and particularly considers environmental impact, according to Mignon Marks, a contributor to the manual within the Energy Commission.

The manual, which addresses project development within the Desert Renewable Energy Conservation Plan (DRECP) area, "should be approved by June or July," Marks said. In addition to renewable energy development on federal lands managed by the BLM, the manual also covers project permitting on private and state-owned land.

Following a first stakeholders meeting in late March, the final DRECP is expected in late May or June. The manual is part of the over-arching governor's plan to expedite renewable energy facilities that contribute to a renewables portfolio standard of 33 percent by 2020.

Among controversial issues covered in the manual is the use of cooling water, which can be coupled with dry technology to reduce usage. The manual would also allow for a single comprehensive species study rather than individual studies for each species potentially impacted. It would permit developers to make payments in lieu of replacing species habitat elsewhere. The manual also calls for micro-seismic monitoring to avoid Basel-type follow-on earthquakes.

Until a few years ago the Bureau of Land Management's conservation plan for the California deserts didn’t address geothermal projects. But to date, BLM has received around a dozen larger scale proposals and over 125 right-of-way petitions covering over a million acres of desert land, according to a recent analysis by Jeff Aardahl, the California Representative of Defenders of Wildlife's California Program Office.

Around 300 MW of geothermal projects are in early stages of permitting across five areas of the California deserts now, and in the Salton Sea alone, another 2,000 MW are very possible, given the 650°F saline water temperature there, according to BLM's geothermal project lead in California, Sean Hagerty. "And this is just the beginning," he added.

Charles W. Thurston is a RenewableEnergyWorld.com correspondent based in California.
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Re: DRAMP/RAMP Comments

Post by HSSC » Fri Jun 04, 2010 11:34 pm

This is straying from the subject, but I have been to many of these geothermal sites and they have a fairly small footprint. The biggest thing is the power lines. If they pencil out as stand alone projects ( not subsidized by the fed's ), what is the problem ?
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Re: DRAMP/RAMP Comments

Post by L&L Corvairs » Mon Jun 07, 2010 7:27 am

HSSC wrote:This is straying from the subject, but I have been to many of these geothermal sites and they have a fairly small footprint. The biggest thing is the power lines. If they pencil out as stand alone projects ( not subsidized by the fed's ), what is the problem ?

The problem is: What ever footprint they need/take, we can neither ride in it, through it or camp on it.
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Re: DRAMP/RAMP Comments

Post by HSSC » Mon Jun 07, 2010 9:25 pm

L&L Corvairs wrote:
HSSC wrote:This is straying from the subject, but I have been to many of these geothermal sites and they have a fairly small footprint. The biggest thing is the power lines. If they pencil out as stand alone projects ( not subsidized by the fed's ), what is the problem ?

The problem is: What ever footprint they need/take, we can neither ride in it, through it or camp on it.
That much I know already. I like to keep the lights on and the fridge going and the footprint is somewhat small. We have a bunch of these sites here in northern Nevada and one is about four miles from my house. I can tell you from my own eyes they will not be putting one of these plants in the dunes. Camp areas yes, in the dunes no. Camp down the street and we can use home grown power. Made in the USA. =D>
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Re: DRAMP/RAMP Comments

Post by nixsternik » Tue Jun 08, 2010 9:17 am

BLM Extends Comment Period for Draft Imperial Sand Dunes Plan

http://www.blm.gov/ca/st/en/info/newsro ... dunes.html
Nicole Nicholas Gilles
Executive Director
American Sand Association

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Re: DRAMP/RAMP Comments

Post by Woodglue » Tue Jun 08, 2010 5:28 pm

Thank you nixsternik, and Welcome to the board.
I was just about to post the same :wink:


Folks, the new deadline is Aug09, 2010.
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Re: DRAMP/RAMP Comments

Post by Woodglue » Thu Jun 10, 2010 2:36 pm

Woodglue wrote:From Renewable Energy World.com:
Southwestern US Prepares for Geothermal Energy
Land leases and streamlined permitting open up the possibility of more geothermal energy coming soon to the region.
by Charles W. Thurston, Contributor
Published: June 2, 2010

California, United States -- Government preparations for geothermal land leasing and for project environmental studies are progressing in California, thanks to coordinated efforts by a host of federal, state and local authorities.

<<SNIP!>>

BLM Opens Bids for 114 parcels

Some 332,000 acres of land under Bureau of Land Management control in Nevada were auctioned on May 12 for geothermal exploration and development. Bidding went as high as $1,000 an acre, which Magma Energy, of Reno, paid for a Churchill County parcel.

Cheryl Seath, a geologist in the Bishop, CA office of BLM, listed he following western California land auctions that are expected soon:

•19,162 acres in the West Chocolate Mountains, southwest of Los Angeles, for which a draft EIS is due by Sept 2010; one lease is pending there.
•6,400 acres in the Superstition Mountings, with the auction dates hampered by a pending Navy use ruling; there are three pending lease applications in the area already.
•22,460 acres in the Haiwee area of Inyo County, CA, for which a draft EIS is due in July. There are already three pending lease applications there, said Seath.
Future areas under consideration for geothermal leases include 72,000 acres, covering 21 specific industry nominations in: the Surprise Valley of Modoc County; Glamis, Imperial County; Randsburg, in Kern County; and Tennant, in Siskiyou County.
<<SNIP!>>
No thank you! [-X
Our own Dick Holliday contact the BLM about this issue seeking to confirm that the reference to Glamis was factual or used only for convenience.
He recently received this response from the USBLM:
Dear Mr. Holliday,

The use of the word "Glamis" in the article that you included a link to in
your message is, unfortunately, the name given to the 11 geothermal
nominations that have been submitted to the Bureau of Land Management (BLM)
by a geothermal company for lands in the general vicinity of the
"community" of Glamis. As the word "nomination" implies, this is a formal
request from the public to BLM to consider lands for geothermal leasing.
I've attached a portion of our geothermal regulations under 43 Code of
Federal Regulation Part 3200 which address geothermal nominations. The
areas that have been nominated by industry and may be considered by BLM
for geothermal leasing in the future are north of Highway 78 and west of
the Coachella Canal, and to the north of Glamis and east of the railroad
right of way. These two areas were identified collectively as "Glamis" in
the article.

In the case of the Imperial Sand Dunes Recreation Area, my understanding is
that BLM does not have any plans to consider leasing the lands for
geothermal even if the lands have been nominated. In fact, BLM has
specifically excluded the Imperial Sand Dunes from the West Chocolate
Mountains Renewable Energy Evaluation area to the northwest of Mammoth
Wash.

There has been, however, some history of geothermal in this area. As you
may be aware, an area in and around Glamis covering 25,460 acres was
designated as a Known Geothermal Resource Area (KGRA) by the U.S.
Geological Survey in 1971, as shown in my second attached document.
Following the submission of geothermal lease applications in the late
1970's, the BLM completed an environmental document in 1981 which addressed
geothermal leasing in the Glamis KGRA along with an additional 168,000
acres surrounding the KGRA and extending south to Interstate 8. Through
the analysis, it was determined that the majority of the Algodones dunes
would be closed to geothermal leasing, with some areas on either side of
the dunes open to leasing but without surface occupancy. Following the
completion of the analysis and decision document, BLM did hold four
competitive geothermal lease sales for about 14,000 acres within the Glamis
KGRA between 1982 and 1985, but no bids were submitted by industry at the
sales and so BLM did not issue any leases. In a similar fashion, the
pending geothermal lease applications, filed by several different
geothermal companies, which surrounded the Glamis KGRA were withdrawn by
industry, and so again, BLM did not issue any leases. Between 1985 and
2008 (when the Glamis nominations were submitted to BLM), the geothermal
industry did not express any interest in the general area. While there has
been an increase in the geothermal industry's interest in the area, my
recommendation to management for future geothermal leasing in the "Glamis"
area is outside of the Imperial Sand Dunes Recreation Area.

Please feel free to contact me directly at (916) xxx-xxxx if you have any
questions regarding this material or other geothermal issues.

Best regards,
Thanks Dick Holliday.
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Re: DRAMP/RAMP Comments

Post by Mean Green » Tue Aug 10, 2010 8:50 am

Now that the comments period deadline has come and gone, I would like to thank the ASA , Mr. Brunasso, Mr Seaver, Woodglue, and everyone else that helped me and others construct logical and factual comments that hopefully the BLM will take into consideration. Thank you to everyone that worked so hard to get out in front of this. =D>

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Re: DRAMP/RAMP Comments

Post by RobC » Tue Aug 10, 2010 9:16 am

Yes, I agree. Thank you all for your hard work. Hopefully they make a difference in the final outcome.
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Re: DRAMP/RAMP Comments

Post by Vincent J Brunasso » Wed Aug 11, 2010 7:02 pm

Thanks to everyone that took the time to respond. I hope it helps - I know it won't hurt the cause.
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Re: DRAMP/RAMP Comments

Post by RolandMoran » Tue Nov 19, 2013 1:43 am

sticksand wrote:How can the dunes be used for geothermal energy?? Are they going to put solar panels right in the center of a bowl??
The wind would rake havoc on the panels the sand shifts so much I have no Idea how they would be held up in the sand.

I don't like the way this is looking. Can some one clue me in on why the ISDRA is a good place for Geothermal Energy
I will still prefer to use solar panels..Using geothermal energy is bit expensive and most probably inefficient..

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Re: DRAMP/RAMP Comments

Post by RolandMoran » Wed Nov 20, 2013 8:04 am

RolandMoran wrote:
sticksand wrote:How can the dunes be used for geothermal energy?? Are they going to put solar panels right in the center of a bowl??
The wind would rake havoc on the panels the sand shifts so much I have no Idea how they would be held up in the sand.

I don't like the way this is looking. Can some one clue me in on why the ISDRA is a good place for Geothermal Energy
I will still prefer to use solar panels..Using geothermal energy is bit expensive and most probably inefficient..

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