Firearms in camp

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Firearms in camp

Post by Grumpy Wookiee »

In the Glamis ISDRA forum, we were having a conversation about the problems that can occur with camp rules. So as no to detour from the original intent of the post, I have decided to move my comments and concerns about the use of firearms, a topic that sprang up from the original post (partially because of me) to the safety and survival forum instead. The below quote was from the previous thread. Im sure that the administrators will iron everything out with links to each and so on and so forth as needed to make this thread presentable.
MFortie wrote:While I generally agree with what you posted (and GW), the CORRECT decision is to shoot to STOP the threat, not to kill.
This is a good point, that stopping the threat MAY not involve killing another, but if you are going to carry a firearm, you need to prepare yourself for the damage it may cause. Even shooting someone in the leg could cause death, esspecially in Glamis, where medical treatment may be a ways out. I have seen many people bleed out from wounds that normally would not have killed a person that had access to immediate medical attention. I have seen others that have been shot in places that should have killed them instantly, but they continued to fight. This is another problem with shooting to cause enough damage to "stop the threat". Just because it will stop one person, does not mean it will stop the next. It may just escalate the situation to an undesirable level.

In the end, if you are not prepared to take someones life, then you need to leave the fire arm at home. Warning shots should not be thought of as an option. That round can travel great distances, and if you shoot at anything other than your target, you have the threat of hitting an innocent bystander. Even shooting at the ground should be considered dangerous, as there are many rocks and other objects that can deflect the round into an unwanted direction. That is why warning shots or "spoilers" are not authorized for use by law enforcement or military personnel.

If there is a situation that is present that you feel you need to pull out your weapon, you need to do so with the intent to kill. It is called deadly force for a reason, because no matter where the bullet lands, it has the force behind it to cause death.
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Post by kev »

I agree with what you say, but this is the information age. If I have to shoot someone there is a very good chance they are going to die before the "threat is stopped". When the bad guys family sues me, their lawyer will google my name and print out every BBS that I have posted to about guns. If I say I'm going to kill anyone that tries to rob me in a post on here it will look very bad for me.

There is a big difference between the Military and the civilian world. Most of the time you will not have to defend your actions in combat in a court of law. Most of the time you will in the civilian world. Maybe in both criminal and civil court. In Nevada if you are found not guilty in a court of law you can not be sued. In Kalifornia you might get sue by everyone in his family even if you are found not guilty. Most case's of civilian shooting cost the shooter 10's of thousands of dollars in court costs.

So, like you said if you are going to have a weapon (gun, knife, baseball bat, mace) for self defense, you had better be ready to use it and be prepared for the out come. You might have to defend yourself and the bad guy might die from your actions. If you don't think you can live with that or the outcome in court then get insurance give up your stuff.

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Post by MFortie »

GW, again I agree with what you are saying. I deduced that your experiences are more combat / military related as opposed to civilian or CCW, so that was the point of my comment.

Yes, shooting someone to 'stop the threat' is probably going to result in the loss of life, and yes people need to be fully prepared for the results. Even the most 'righteous' shoot is going to be torn apart by the LEOs, the media and lastly, the lawyers.

The point about some attorney jumping on the 'net and finding every post someone has ever typed and dragging them into court is very valid.

The decision to shoot or not shoot has to be made well in advance of any confrontation; everyone needs to decide for themselves where 'the line in the sand' is and whether using deadly force is something they can live with.

Me, I'm not into confrontation (never have been) and don't have a need or desire to protect my 'stuff' (beyond using locks and prevention), only my family, and only as a last resort.

I truly hope anyone who desires to use deadly force to protect themselves or their families gets proper training and makes decisions in advance appropriate to their individual situations.

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Post by Washroad »

Something to think about for California people; it is illegal to harm someone to protect property in this state. So, the best you can do here is to lock it up and hope that's good enough and that you have some kind of theft insurance.

You can defend yourself, you can defend others, but the situation has to be one in which all avenues of avoidance are exhusted. In other words, you can use deadly force only as the very last resort left to you. You must try to escape the situation (meaning, run away) before you can defend. I don't think these are good laws at all but they are the ones we must deal with.
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Post by Dusty Rhodes »

I don't condone this or suggest it either way, but food for thought:

Would it be better to run away to safety, if that option is available, or to kill someone, knowing you had the chance to run to safety?
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Post by crash »

My thinking has always been to gather the family and get to a relatively safe location. If that fails. Any and ALL options are open.

LAYERS of security to deter theft are ALWAYS the cheapest form of protection.

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Post by Dusty Rhodes »

Good policy Crash. Last Option.
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Post by crash »

That said. I need to update some of my layers.

I REALLY liked that brake disc lock that was talked about previously in another thread. It's a little expensive though. Anybody have any ideas on where to get a VERY strong and noisy chain? How about the lock to go with it?

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Post by Dune Shredder »

As a vet and knowing GW and Jason I agree with his analogy of personal safety. If all avenues are exhausted then by all means you have to protect your loved ones. I hope I never have to use one for that but I'm always prepard. In AZ they passed a law last year that the prosecution has to proved beyond a reasonable doubt that it wasn't self defense instead of the other way around.
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Post by Washroad »

Dusty,
In my opinion, avoidance is always better. Running to safety you will never have to deal with the thought that you "could have but didn't."
I wouldn't ever consider deadly force except as an extreme last option.
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Post by crash »

Washroad wrote:Dusty,
In my opinion, avoidance is always better. Running to safety you will never have to deal with the thought that you "could have but didn't."
I wouldn't ever consider deadly force except as an extreme last option.
How bout that monkey of yours????

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Post by Flipper »

Crash,
I use the style in the upper row with the sides, no alarm and had to oversize one of the holes in the rotor, but alot cheaper.

http://www.masterlock.com/apps/catalog/ ... l|security

Everyone has made some very good points. Makes you stop and think about what could happen.
As a last and final opton I will defend myself as needed, just hope it doesn't come to that.
I think I'm more scared of the lawyers.
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Post by Grumpy Wookiee »

What everyone is saying is exactly why I brought the point up in the first place. The origninal scenario had a young woman who was confronted with a situation where there was potential harm. Most of the responders to that original post were saying that they feel protected because they carry a fire arm. I wanted to make sure that most people understood that a firearm is not protection in most cases, and has the ability to escalate the situation very quickly.

It is a last resort option, one that needs to be thought of as such. Between living with the pain of taking anothers life, coupled with the problems that the law presents, it is just not worth it to even get the gun to protect property. To protect life, yes. I am simply trying to shed some light on all those "tough guys" that think that a gun is going to protect them from harm.

As I stated in my original post, I never used to carry a firearm to the desert. It was only until I read a story about illegal immigrants attacking people in camp. When I heard about an Escalade raming a RV and knocking it over, and shooting into it and camp, that I had a second thought about bringing a firearm with me. I never thought that something like that could happen. Now that I know that it can, and that it has, I will take the appropriate meassures to protect myself. From what I heard, that situation did not seem like something that the victims could run away from.
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Post by ChoppedLiver »

Ya know what they say. If you shoot someone in your house be sure they fall inside and not out. You can shoot someone in your house in your defense. You do not have to try and escape your home for safety first...

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Post by crash »

ChoppedLiver wrote:Ya know what they say. If you shoot someone in your house be sure they fall inside and not out. You can shoot someone in your house in your defense. You do not have to try and escape your home for safety first...
....depending on how good your lawyer is, and how bad his/her lawyer is. Or vise versa. :roll:

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Post by Washroad »

crash wrote:
ChoppedLiver wrote:Ya know what they say. If you shoot someone in your house be sure they fall inside and not out. You can shoot someone in your house in your defense. You do not have to try and escape your home for safety first...
....depending on how good your lawyer is, and how bad his/her lawyer is. Or vise versa. :roll:
Actually, even in California, if you kill someone that has illegally entered your home the law "assumes" you were in a life-defense situation.

Now, if the burglar falls and breaks their leg, that is a whole different story.

I understand where Grumpy is coming from. Too much testosterone can cause a problem.
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Post by Grumpy Wookiee »

Washroad wrote:I understand where Grumpy is coming from. Too much testosterone can cause a problem.
Case in point...it took away all your hair and still didnt make your pp any bigger....
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Post by Glamisbound »

I always love this subject because I'm a strong advocate of the 2nd amendment. I'm almost always armed and if I'm not currently armed (actually on me), it will be close and ready. I do this because of the line of work I'm in obviously but also because I could never live with myself if I wasn't able to protect my family during a violent confrontation.

Frankly I can't comprehend a person not wanting to be prepared to protect their family. A bat by the door isn't going to do it when the bad guy is armed. Ask ANY cop anywhere and I'll bet they'll tell you the same thing I tell people when asked...violent crimes are going up. Prepare yourselves!!

Also, contrary to what Brian said, there is no where in the law that says you are required to retreat from a deadly situation before applying deadly force in defense. If you are confronted by a criminal and your life is in jeopardy, you can defend yourself right there and right then, you are not required to run away.

Also, as a citizen of this country, you have the right to use the force reasonably necessary to detain someone who has committed a crime in your presence. I'm NOT saying that you should, only that you have a right to. It's almost always better to just be a good witness and call 911.

If you do choose to arm yourself, educate yourself on the laws (starting with 12020 pc), know your weapon(s), practice, be prepared...
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Post by Washroad »

Glamisbound wrote: Also, contrary to what Brian said, there is no where in the law that says you are required to retreat from a deadly situation before applying deadly force in defense. If you are confronted by a criminal and your life is in jeopardy, you can defend yourself right there and right then, you are not required to run away.
Thank you for the update.

How about in the situation described in "A New Rule in Our Camp?" If the girl had thought her life was in danger, could she have used a firearm to defend herself? I'm thinking legally she could have as the camp area is considered her residence?? (Do not take this as saying she should have by any means.)

I don't have a CC. If my motorhome is parked at Glamis, the key is out of the ignition, my pistol is loaded inside, is that legal?
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Post by Glamisbound »

Washroad wrote:
Glamisbound wrote: Also, contrary to what Brian said, there is no where in the law that says you are required to retreat from a deadly situation before applying deadly force in defense. If you are confronted by a criminal and your life is in jeopardy, you can defend yourself right there and right then, you are not required to run away.
Thank you for the update.

How about in the situation described in "A New Rule in Our Camp?" If the girl had thought her life was in danger, could she have used a firearm to defend herself? I'm thinking legally she could have as the camp area is considered her residence?? (Do not take this as saying she should have by any means.


I don't have a CC. If my motorhome is parked at Glamis, the key is out of the ignition, my pistol is loaded inside, is that legal?
Regarding your first question on whether or not she could have justified deadly force to protect herself, I say yes!! The reason why is because it's perfectly REASONABLE to believe she could have been in fear for her life being confronted by several men, who are larger and stronger (read could kill her with their bare hands), who are acting in a violent manner toward her. The female versus male, the number of suspects, and the size difference between the combatants is taken into consideration when judging the use of deadly force.

Your other question addresses the right to carry a loaded firearm within your camp. I couldn’t find the section (I'll keep looking) but the California Penal Code does consider a camp site a persons "temporary residence", which means it is perfectly legal to carry a loaded firearm just as if they were at home. The big question is how much of the area you are in, is considered your camp site. To me it means your motor homes and the area immediately outside your motorhome (kind of grey area, which is common).

After reading the original thread by Wolfpack, something struck me as odd. Several people said something to the affect of "guns can cause more problems then they could solve out in the desert". My opinion is completely opposite of that. I believe when you are in a more desolate area, the ability to protect yourself, your family, and your friends, lies on your shoulders as any LEO response is going to be from a distance.

I'm telling you guys right now. The bad guys carry guns. I say be prepared...the RESPONSIBILITY is in your hands. I have shot one person in the line of duty (they survived and are in prison now) during my career and have come close several more times (I’ll tell the story next weekend if anyone is interested). It’s not fun, but I don’t regret it, nor do I feel badly about it, because it’s their decision to put themselves in front of my gun and let me tell….I’m **** glad I had it.
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Post by Grumpy Wookiee »

Glamisbound wrote: After reading the original thread by Wolfpack, something struck me as odd. Several people said something to the affect of "guns can cause more problems then they could solve out in the desert". My opinion is completely opposite of that. I believe when you are in a more desolate area, the ability to protect yourself, your family, and your friends, lies on your shoulders as any LEO response is going to be from a distance.

I'm telling you guys right now. The bad guys carry guns. I say be prepared...the RESPONSIBILITY is in your hands. I have shot one person in the line of duty (they survived and are in prison now) during my career and have come close several more times (I’ll tell the story next weekend if anyone is interested). It’s not fun, but I don’t regret it, nor do I feel badly about it, because it’s their decision to put themselves in front of my gun and let me tell….I’m **** glad I had it.
GB, I can understand why your opinion would be the exact opposite, and that a gun in your hands would be perfectly safe. Because of your training.

I talked to my girlfriend about this subject. She feels that the gun in her hands is more dangerous, because she has not prepared herself for a defensive situation. She feels fine if Im there and the gun is in my hands. There was a part in one of my previous posts that stated, "if my girlfriend was presented with that situation, do I think she would shoot? No, I think she would turn into a sobbing ball of mush." I told her that, and she agrees. She knows that she would not pull the trigger.

That being said, I feel that most people would have a similar response. You know as well as I do, that when presented with a life and death situation, hesitation is the biggest enemy. When you hesitate, you die, not them. Most people would hesitate.

I feel that each person needs to be able to protect themselves in the manner that they are most comfortable with. For you and me, a firearm would not be out of the question. But for my girlfriend, and 90% of the other people out there, it should be.
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Post by ddjthomas »

Grumpy Wookie wrote:, and 90% of the other people out there, it should be.
That is one heck of a general statement that I would argue with. Most of my freinds are former military (as am I) and a few are LEO's, I would trust almost everyone of them with a gun. As for knowing how they would react when the time comes, you just never know until it happens.

I've been on the wrong end of a gun and it was in the hands of a motorist who cut off our car and then got mad at us for honking at him! I just slowed down and went a different direction. How will I react when that choice is not available I just won't know until it happens. I think I know and I am DARN well prepared, but I don't want to find out.
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Post by Grumpy Wookiee »

ddjthomas wrote: Most of my freinds are former military (as am I) and a few are LEO's, I would trust almost everyone of them with a gun.
Your friends that are prior military, LEO's, or have had training to use a firearm as protection would fall within 10% of the people in Glamis, dont you think?

Would you trust their girlfriends / wives when someone attacks them and their emotions are running? Would they pull the trigger?

What about their kids? What about their kids friends that find it in the sock drawer?

No, not everyone is unqualified to have a gun. All I am saying is that it isn't as much protection as most people think it is, and if they are going to use it as such, they need to ensure they are prepared for the outcome and the potential dangers associated with it...
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Post by crash »

:D CAMP WITH COPS!!! As long as at least one is always around, problem solved. :lol:

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Post by Grumpy Wookiee »

crash wrote::D CAMP WITH COPS!!! As long as at least one is always around, problem solved. :lol:
Yeah, until he gets drunk and handcuffs me to the lawn chair (my buddy is a cop and actually did this to my other friend during a camping trip. He had to sleep with the chair in his tent, because the cop passed out right afterwards and no one could find his keys until he woke up the next day)
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Post by crash »

OK....CAMP WITH RESPONSIBLE COPS!! :lol:

How bout that?

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Post by MFortie »

Or carry a handcuff key! :D

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Post by Woodglue »

Grumpy Wookie wrote:
crash wrote::D CAMP WITH COPS!!! As long as at least one is always around, problem solved. :lol:
Yeah, until he gets drunk and handcuffs me to the lawn chair (my buddy is a cop and actually did this to my other friend during a camping trip. He had to sleep with the chair in his tent, because the cop passed out right afterwards and no one could find his keys until he woke up the next day)
=D> Now that right there is F-U-N-N-Y ! I don't care who you are!

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I once saw a clip on one of those video TV shows. Some dude slipped a 5' long Iguana into his buddy's tent [while he was taking a mid-day nap] and zipped the door shut. OMG!!! I was rolling with cramps for DAYS!!!! :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:
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Post by Grumpy Wookiee »

Woodglue wrote: I once saw a clip on one of those video TV shows. Some dude slipped a 5' long Iguana into his buddy's tent [while he was taking a mid-day nap] and zipped the door shut. OMG!!! I was rolling with cramps for DAYS!!!! :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:
My girlfriend didnt laugh. #-o She says she always sleeps with a 5' Iguana in the tent if Im camping with her... :oops:
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Post by GlamisLovingFool »

Now thats Funny right there. I dont care who you are, thats funny.
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Post by chowder »

Washroad wrote:Actually, even in California, if you kill someone that has illegally entered your home the law "assumes" you were in a life-defense situation.
This is only generally true. Even if they are in one's home, if the bullet's entrance wound is in the perp's back, it's not self defense. The homeowner would have a hard time defending that.

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Post by crash »

"He was runnin towards me, tripped, slipped and spun around just as I was unloading those 15 shots or so!" :wink: :shock: :D

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Post by Rekd »

crash wrote:"He was runnin towards me, tripped, slipped and spun around just as I was unloading those 15 shots or so!" :wink: :shock: :D
You need a bigger clip, bro! :wink:
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Re: Firearms in camp

Post by rebelmark »

In California, a campsite offers the same rights as your home. You can defend your campsite as you defend your home.

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Re: Firearms in camp

Post by Rekd »

rebelmark wrote:In California, a campsite offers the same rights as your home. You can defend your campsite as you defend your home.
Holy year and a half old thread, Batman! =D>

J/K. Welcome to the forum! :P
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Re: Firearms in camp

Post by Glamisbound »

ATTENTION MATTV, this thread has been resurected.
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Re: Firearms in camp

Post by Glamisbound »

Rekd wrote:
rebelmark wrote:In California, a campsite offers the same rights as your home. You can defend your campsite as you defend your home.
Holy year and a half old thread, Batman! =D>

J/K. Welcome to the forum! :P
Typical newbee :lol:
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Re: Firearms in camp

Post by Glamisbound »

rebelmark wrote:In California, a campsite offers the same rights as your home. You can defend your campsite as you defend your home.
While this is true, the problem is defining what your campsite is. Does it include your motorhome, tent, enclosed trailer.....of course, that's easily articulated. Does it include a 10' perimeter around your rig? 20'? 1000'??? That's the big question you have to be able to answer if you ever excercise deadly force in your campsite (i.e. temorary residence).
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Re: Firearms in camp

Post by gelwell »

What if you come under rifle fire from 1000'. Doesn't that expand your defensible area and camp?
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Re: Firearms in camp

Post by RAD4EVER »

Camping a Cachuma some years back, scroungers empty our site of chairs, lamps and such! Asked the Park Ranger if "Shot them on site" would it be considered protecting our "Temporary Residence"? Answer...one big fat NO! Even if they broke down the door and reach in for whatever....still can't blow them away! Cause....your life wouldn't be considered as a "Life or death" situation if they just took off with booty?
So...setting up for a "Alamo" situation wouldn't sit well with local Prosecutor, if one get's in a bind?
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Re: Firearms in camp

Post by ddjthomas »

RAD4EVER wrote:Camping a Cachuma some years back, scroungers empty our site of chairs, lamps and such! Asked the Park Ranger if "Shot them on site" would it be considered protecting our "Temporary Residence"? Answer...one big fat NO! Even if they broke down the door and reach in for whatever....still can't blow them away! Cause....your life wouldn't be considered as a "Life or death" situation if they just took off with booty?
So...setting up for a "Alamo" situation wouldn't sit well with local Prosecutor, if one get's in a bind?
JMO
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If I am in my RV and someone breaks down the door they are getting shot :!: Now, can I go shoot their freinds that got smart and are running away :?: NO #-o Even if they deserve it!

As soon as we stop prosocuting people for defending themselves, violent crimes will go down :!: Just a fact look what happened in Australia when they took away guns for the people who obeyed the law #-o Then only the criminals and government have the power, and if you ask me there is not much difference between the government and criminals.
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Re: Firearms in camp

Post by Glamisbound »

gelwell wrote:What if you come under rifle fire from 1000'. Doesn't that expand your defensible area and camp?
That exactly my point. As long as you can articulate what your camp is, in this case it would be out 1000', you are good to go IMO
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Re: Firearms in camp

Post by newrailbuilder »

Ok. May not be the smartest reply for my 2nd post but here goes. I have learned a great deal about responding with deadly force in the last couple of days. FWIW, I was the 'subject' or 'suspect' in a MWAG call. I was justified in my own mind and within the laws of my State. However, it was the first time that I ever resorted to showing force. I'm not upset about the outcome, but, when you are going to use force, in ANY type it needs to be taken seriously. I would go to the end of the earth to protect my family and that is the reason for my course of action. Just remember that there is a very fine line between what should and should not be done depending on the situation.
NRB

ETA: A firearm is a good protection. But a majority of the time it is a false sense of security. If you are going to have one I would recommend that you take a class and be very familiar with the State laws. A lot of times people will use or exhibit deadly force when it is not legal or called for. That is what lands good people in jail. Please be educated. Also, as was already mentioned, if you will use a firearm for protection, you MUST understand the consequences that may come of your decisions.
NRB

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Re: Firearms in camp

Post by Rekd »

Welcome.

Sounds like your problem was (other than pulling out a gun without intending on using it) that you weren't the first one to call. I've found that 9 time out of 10 the guy that calls the cops is the guy that's seen as the law abiding citizen, regardless of whether he is or not.
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Re: Firearms in camp

Post by Glamisbound »

Rekd wrote:Welcome.

Sounds like your problem was (other than pulling out a gun without intending on using it) that you weren't the first one to call. I've found that 9 time out of 10 the guy that calls the cops is the guy that's seen as the law abiding citizen, regardless of whether he is or not.
Hum :? , I don't know about 9 out of 10, but I've heard it certainly helps :mrgreen:
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Re: Firearms in camp

Post by GlamisSandDuner »

ddjthomas wrote: If I am in my RV and someone breaks down the door they are getting shot :!:
=D> =D> =D> I agree 100%. There are too many easier opportunities to steal stuff in the dunes in peoples camps. I feel that if someone breaks into my locked trailer at night with me, my family and dogs inside, then they are not looking to steal stuff, they are looking to do me and my love ones physical harm. This is when I am in fear for my life and those who entered are going to get shot. I have the same outlook for home protection as well.
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Re: Firearms in camp

Post by RAD4EVER »

Campsite One:
-Too many Guys.
-Too little Girls.
-Too much hard booze.
-Firearms in camp.
Campsite two:
-Too many Guys.
-No Girls.
-Too much hard booze.
-Firearms in camp.
Outcome:
-One guy crosses over to "Too little Girls" side.
-Campsite One guy cleans campsite two's clock!
-Campsite two guy's go to Campsite one's and ask why all of them jump the Camp two guy???
-Both Campsites barking "Dog" this and "Dog" that... ready to lock up!
-Guy from Campsite Two pulls out firearm and puts it two Campsite One Guys head?
-Campsite One Guy hollers out "Pull the Trigger Dog!"?????
-Both campsites break upped the "Dog" barking.
-Girls father comes back from Olds and sends them into trailer.
End of line.
RAD :roll:

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Re: Firearms in camp

Post by Rekd »

RAD4EVER wrote:Campsite One:
-Too many Guys.
-Too little Girls.
-Too much hard booze.
-Firearms in camp.
Campsite two:
-Too many Guys.
-No Girls.
-Too much hard booze.
-Firearms in camp.
Outcome:
-One guy crosses over to "Too little Girls" side.
-Campsite One guy cleans campsite two's clock!
-Campsite two guy's go to Campsite one's and ask why all of them jump the Camp two guy???
-Both Campsites barking "Dog" this and "Dog" that... ready to lock up!
-Guy from Campsite Two pulls out firearm and puts it two Campsite One Guys head?
-Campsite One Guy hollers out "Pull the Trigger Dog!"?????
-Both campsites break upped the "Dog" barking.
-Girls father comes back from Olds and sends them into trailer.
End of line.
RAD :roll:
Pity reply. :roll:
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Re: Firearms in camp

Post by GlamisSandDuner »

RAD4EVER wrote:Campsite One:
-Too many Guys.
-Too little Girls.
-Too much hard booze.
-Firearms in camp.
Campsite two:
-Too many Guys.
-No Girls.
-Too much hard booze.
-Firearms in camp.
Outcome:
-One guy crosses over to "Too little Girls" side.
-Campsite One guy cleans campsite two's clock!
-Campsite two guy's go to Campsite one's and ask why all of them jump the Camp two guy???
-Both Campsites barking "Dog" this and "Dog" that... ready to lock up!
-Guy from Campsite Two pulls out firearm and puts it two Campsite One Guys head?
-Campsite One Guy hollers out "Pull the Trigger Dog!"?????
-Both campsites break upped the "Dog" barking.
-Girls father comes back from Olds and sends them into trailer.
End of line.
RAD :roll:
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Re: Firearms in camp

Post by Woodglue »

I'm not certain, but I'm guessing it was under his helmet.
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