Is Mr. Ed a horse of the wrong color?

Issues relating to the California Off Highway Motor Vehicle Recreation / Green Sticker Fund

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OBSESSED
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Is Mr. Ed a horse of the wrong color?

Post by OBSESSED »

It is time, to call a horse a horse.

Calling them as I see them…….

Mr. Ed does not do sand.
Mr. Ed does not care about sand.
Mr. Ed likes and does hard pack.
When Mr. Ed dies, he will have a monument to his glorious life at El Mirage.
Funded by the Greenies on the OHMVR

Makes you wanna say wtF!

I did not get to go to this OHMVR meeting.
I read this, and talked to my dune friend that was there.
However, I did, witnessed Ed's behavior at the TRT meeting.

It is time for someone to ask this:
If Mr. Waldheim is not a friend to duners, and he doesn't help fund the busiest OHV place (OHV use per square acre), is he any better than an anti OHV-person?
If he wants to take OUR Green Sticker Money, and build a monument glorifying Mr. Ed, I think this makes him worse than a greenie.
The Greenie will not give us our OHV Green sticker$$$
Mr. Ed hijacks it for the glorification of Mr. Ed.

That in my book is wrong,
Way wrong....

So, is Mr. Ed a horse of the wrong color?

You must ask yourself that question.


SB

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Post by Larry Jowdy »

Steve,

Personally, I've never had to ask the question, I know the answer


Dude, you crack me up :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

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Post by Winston Cup »

Steve I'm walkin' on diplomatic eggshells here and just so I don't crunch too many at once I'll make it short.

There was a very strong reason why Vince, Jerry, Kieth and a few other helping hands felt that there was a very serious and immediate need for the rapid creation of this organization to protect the duning communities interests we now know as the ASA.

Now you, and maybe a few others it seems, are begining to get a small glimps as to why "for yourselves".

You may also soon begin to realize, "for yourself", that there may have been, and continues to be, efforts by some to head off and prevent this organization from reaching it's true full potential. Information is power.

Welcome to the Matrix.
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Post by OBSESSED »

Guy Chrest wrote:Steve I'm walkin' on diplomatic eggshells here and just so I don't crunch too many at once I'll make it short.

Now you, and maybe a few others it seems, are begining to get a small glimps as to why "for yourselves".

Information is power.

Welcome to the Matrix.


It is amazing of the e-mails I have gotten over this post/thread.
I do not feel the need to walk on egg shells, no one has ever called me a diplomat. I am not an elected official of any .org (nor will I ever pursue a post with any org. This is Steve's opinion. If you don't like me do you think I care? :lol: With that said, you all can see where I am comming from. It is for that reason I asked the above questions.
I will write this answer to any private e-mails and PM's that you may want to send me (see below)


--------------------------------------------------------------------------
To all that do not know me, or have never spoke to me on the phone, I feel the need to respond to you so as to save you from writing me another e-mail :roll:

Like all posts and e-mails, writing ones opinions are what makes this country of ours great. My perspective is seeing something as wasteful and calling it such.
FYI: I have known about Ed's pet project for some time now....

I have been at other meetings where Ed didn't even know I was there.
He doesn't know me.
I refuse to back any OHV advocate that wants to build a Million dollar shrine. It will take many more dollars to fund it in the future, yearly.
You like that idea?
I am against any and all government waste.
I am against any and all waste by someone that has an agenda.
I am against anything that I see as being against the good of the whole OHV community. Realize that my opinion only matters to people that agree or disagree with me, those that don't have an opinion will sit and wonder of what just happened.
Maybe you don't like the language I used. I like to illustrate the absurd by being absurd......
Ed has been working on this project for twenty years.
Twenty frickk-en years!
I over heard Ed say this himself, as he was talking to another OHV friendly person.
His grand scheme was to get on the OHMVR commission.
He succeeded. I do not applaud this.
I find it repulsive, that someone would want to waste millions of dollars on something that only matters to a few people.
Ed could have made a difference to the whole OHV users by making sure funding was made to many OHV areas.
Instead he helped his pet project get funded.
You don't have a problem with that, that's fine.
I do have a problem.
That's how life goes.

Sand is who I am, if you only do hard pack, YOU wouldn't understand!


Steve

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Post by Winston Cup »

Ditto Steve, I agree 100%. For the record, just so there isn't any confusion, I have zero problem with what your bringing to the board here and even if I did, what difference would it make anyway. It's factual, it's correct and it's refreshing to see that more people are paying attention. I know you've been paying attention and I think a few others are now as well. I've received no e-mails over your post, why would I?

One thing you have to wonder though. Besides the 1 million dollars allocated for this project out of the OHV green sticker funds, you gotta ask yourself, what else has this little pet project cost us?
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Post by n / a »

Steve, have you contacted Mr. Waldheim with your concerns and opinion?

Why do you only implicate Mr. Waldheim for some sort of wrong doing in your mind? Didn't the Grants Committee and the Commission in whole make a decision, not just Mr. Waldheim?

Are you saying that those who visit and use El Mirage don't deserve funding for this OHV area?

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Post by Larry Jowdy »

WW or is it SK??? El Mirage isn't the real issue. The real issue is that according to demographics, ISDRA should have received far more funding.

And don't forget, the guy the Ed was slapping on the back tried to hold the BLM hostige by telling them that he would fund their grants if they permanently closed the temp. closures. etc. etc. etc.

The MOST VISITED OHV area in the state, and they got peanuts.

You have to take a real hard look at the Green Sticker funds and who's voting on the grants.

And, finally, as you alluded to, I hope the Commissioners are reading this, maybe they will open their eyes to the real world vs wallyworld

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Post by n / a »

Mr. Jowdey, my understanding of the funding is that the ISDRA got nearly $ 500,000 of funding, but it went to the Imperial County LEO's. Do you want the money going to the folks who mis-managed the area (BLM), or those who have a track record of helping bring this area back to the familys who don't want the rowdy problems?

Since Mr. Bob Ham, who sits on the TRT with you, was successful in getting the Commission to send the money to Imperial County for law enforcement, what is your opinion about the same?

Also, where is is stated that the "demographics" of an area shall dictate what amount of money is spent from the OHV Fund to this area?

The bottom line here is that BLM, once again, failed in the mission to get the Green Sticker money they requested. Just another in a long list of failures to this community. I'm having a problem with supporting an agency that doesn't get the job done. Too bad some here find it necessary to support an agency who has caused our current problems in the first place.

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Post by Larry Jowdy »

So, if the ISDRA got $500,000 dollars from the OHMVR but it was given to the ICSO, then the ISDRA didn't get the money but the ICSO's did???? which leave us with the fact that the ISDRA didn't get the money, it was siphoned off to give it to the Sheriff. What a vicious circle

Per your profile, where exactly is Denver, North Carolina???

And for someone that supposidly lives in Denver, North Carolina, why exactly is it that you would even care what happens in California????

Seems to me that if people pay to play, (green sticker) then the money should go back to the areas that support the system.

And finally, why has your message gone from defending Mr. Ed to the reported inadequacies of the BLM

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Post by Larry Jowdy »

Oh, wait a minute, I finally get it!!!!!

Ok, here's the deal, I'm going to give you a Christmas present of $1,000.00 dollars. BUT, I'm going to take away $750.00 of it and give that money to your brother because he needs a Christmas present too.

But don't forget, I gave you $1,000 and I gave him $750

And, by the way, I'm going to give your other brother a million dollars

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Post by Winston Cup »

n / a wrote:Also, where is is stated that the "demographics" of an area shall dictate what amount of money is spent from the OHV Fund to this area?
There in lies the problem right there. There needs to be a set formula for distribution of OHV Green Stickers Funds based on usage. This way we will not have the 6 Ca. State SVRA's and other areas financed on the backs of the users of the ISDRA. If funds distribution was based on usage, as it should be, this combined with the proper amount of federally appropraited money for ESA federally mandated items and there would be no need for a user fee at the ISDRA. If setup properly, using this method, there should not be aneed for a fee anywhere. Not at the ISDRA, not at Dumont, not at El Mirage, not at Johnson nor Stoddard, not anywhere. No lobbying, no deal making, no game playing, no kissing *****, it's automatic. The more OHV usage a place gets, the more money they get for items dealing with OHV usage. A visitor center in my opinion is not one of them. A study needs to be commissioned by someone outside of california state parks influence and a formula needs to be set.
n / a wrote:The bottom line here is that BLM, once again, failed in the mission to get the Green Sticker money they requested. Just another in a long list of failures to this community. I'm having a problem with supporting an agency that doesn't get the job done. Too bad some here find it necessary to support an agency who has caused our current problems in the first place.
Obviously this person, of whom I don't have to go out on a limb to figure out who he really is, is not as sharp as he claims to be. The local agencies are not the ones at fault for failing to fullfill mandated requirements of the ESA which directly led to the closures we have now. Anyone as informed as you should be, would realize this was a failure much higher up in the food chain so to speak than the local field offices. If your gonna use this type of flawed thinking then by the same effect supporting the Barstow BLM Field Office receiving OHMVR Funds you are in fact supporting the agency who caused our current problems as well.

It's also hipocritical and shows an obvious bias to say your having a problem supporting an agency that doesn't get the job done, refering to the BLM El Centro Office, when at the same time you seem to have no problem with the BLM Barstow Office receiving a half a million dollars from the OHMVR Green Sticker Fund for law enforcement when they don't even have the authority to enforce one single state or local law. They no longer posses an MOU from the San Bernardino County Sherrifs Dept. It was revoked some time ago because they were abusing their authority.
Without an MOU they're like a guard dog without teeth, you can basically do just about anything up there now and they can't touch you, unless it falls under federal law which don't cover much. The sound decible limits and the registration laws are all california state laws, get the hint there. They have to call out the sheriff's dept, so maybe the SB Sheriff Dept should have received the money.

Fo those that don't understand what an MOU is. It is a Memorandum Of Understanding between a federal agency, in this case the BLM Barstow Office, and the local jurisdictional agency of which the area lies in, in this case the San Bernardino County Sherrifs Dept. This local MOU is gives a federal agency the authority to enforce state and local laws and regulations. Without it the BLM in that area can't even write you a speeding ticket.

You gotta ask yourself this people, why doesn't this character ever use his real name? I know full well who this is. If you can't put your real name to it, obviously somethings wrong with what you've got to say.

Come back, stop the childish e-mail threats and follow the rules just like everyone else. Be straight up, stop the spin and show everyone who's really talkin' and we can discuss this all day long out in the open. What are you afraid of? And don't give us this crap about being some important high level person with a lot to lose if someone found out who you really are, you work behind a parts counter for god sakes. I'm sure the more you talk the more people will be enlightened. Heck maybe we can also give everyone a little history lesson while we're at it, what do ya say?
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Post by schraderrl »

I don’t care how the money is spent for the El Mirage OHV area as long as it stays free as in no fees. If fees start then I’ll resign from CORVA too.

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Post by azsandrider »

schraderrl wrote:I don’t care how the money is spent for the El Mirage OHV area as long as it stays free as in no fees. If fees start then I’ll resign from CORVA too.
Interesting comment, as the current fee requirement in the ISDRA started BEFORE the ASA was formed and when CORVA was supposedly watching out for OHV riders rights.

I joined CORVA, along with other groups, even though I live in Arizona as I though they were supportive for keeping riding areas open. When I joined I didn't know that the majority of CORVA's priorities would be for the riding areas that Ed Waldhiem's interested in. I hope that is not true.

I'm sure more posts and topics are going to be created about Ed Waldhiem 's special interest and the sellout of all the OHV riders who pay their green stickers fee and ONLY go to the dunes, that you would want to comment on. Especially since CORVA is involved to, as Waldhiem is the president of CORVA to.

I guess most duners need to re-think supporting CORVA if the leader of CORVA is not interested in the most visited OHV area in California. I guarantee that if the dunes are closed, Waldhiem's favorite area will see a lot more OHVs going there and things would change.

The "sqeaky wheel gets the grease" and I think all of us CORVA members need to send letters to CORVA and Waldhiem voicing our displeasure.

Or we can just do nothing and take this hit, and the next, and the next.....



On another note, concerning Wallace Weatherwax, N/A, or whomever he wants to be to respond to me:

I, personally have no problem with Steve Kuehl or him posting his opinions. I may disagree with him at times, but he can be right on some things.

What I have a problem with is that "some people" are afraid to take a stand for what they believe in by listing their required information.

I don't care if you are Bluesky, Wallace Weatherwax, N/A, or whomever, if you want to post here, on this private board, you need to follow the rules and stand by your statements.

I think posts that violate the rules, or who's registration need to be verified. should be taken off the board until the registration is validated. It does not matter what the message is, but the rules need to be fairly enforced for all off us, or there is no point on having the rules.

Steve, buddy, most of us know who you are, where you live, and who you work for. You bring more interest towards you by trying to be sly, coy and secretive than to just create a screen name with the required info and be done with it.
(The above statement is my own opinion and not that of the ASA's.)

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Post by Voice »

Well, this is quite interesting.
I will admit to a huge amount of naiveté concerning CORVA and past issues and such, having only come into the arena recently, with the current closures.
So, I have a few questions:
Since we are on the subject of Ed...
Can SOMEONE verify that he has decided to OFFICIALLY OPPOSE Demo Fee and join with Wildwilderness.org in the fight against Pay-to-Play.
I have been told by Mr. Robert Funkhouser that Mr. Waldheim has pledged CORVA to this fight.

Green Stickers and money and Federal land:
Is there a way to FORCE CA to distribute the money fairly?
Can we not boycott the Green sticker program?

Here's my proposal.
Everyone renews their green stickers like normal and legal. But don't send in the **** $21

Instead, include a note which says that you ONLY ride on FEDERAL land and.... well, you get the picture.

Finally, can someone give me some good search terms to find out about this million dollar boondogle???

Thanks
Brian
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Post by BHenry »

Voice wrote:Green Stickers and money and Federal land:
Is there a way to FORCE CA to distribute the money fairly?
Can we not boycott the Green sticker program?

Here's my proposal.
Everyone renews their green stickers like normal and legal. But don't send in the **** $21

Instead, include a note which says that you ONLY ride on FEDERAL land and.... well, you get the picture.
I was already planning on boycotting (cue Peter Finch's line from Network here). I really like the idea of explaining why, but putting the note in my renewal form would only mean that some DMV flunky would read it, and not those who are in a postion to make any changes to the current system.
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Post by Larry Jowdy »

Brian and Bryan wrote about boycotting the Green Sticker registration program.

I am going to post some information only.
And, I'm not trying to start a debate on if we should boycott of if we should not boycott.

Each has a valid point.

On top of everything else, Bryan H is assuming that the clerk at DMV ""can read"" (During all of my dealings with DMV, I'm convinced that they send recruiting personnel to the University of Illiteracy and hire only the bottom 3% of the graduating class)

Why should we support a program that doesn't support us???

Well unfortunately, many programs are paid by tax payers and the results don't help that tax payer.

What comes to mind are liberal arts programs. We pay taxes to help support art, drama, etc.

Personally, I have absolutely no interest in these types of liberal arts.

(If they would come up with "Conservative Arts" I might go along with it :lol: :lol: )

Back to the issue, it's my understanding that the BLM has a supplemental rule that requires a green sticker on your OHV to operate on public federal land. (I'm not entirely sure but if they don't, they have a MOU with the ICSO that allows them to enforce this law)

With that said, another issue arises in the form of a
Catch 22 situation.

It comes in the form of Calif. Vehicle Code section 38020 which states:

Except as otherwise provided in this division, no person shall operate, transport, or leave standing any off-highway motor vehicle subject to identification under this code which is not registered under the provisions of Division 3 (commencing with Section 4000), unless it is identified under the provisions of this chapter. A violation of this section is an infraction. This section shall not apply to the operation, transportation, or leaving standing of an off-highway vehicle pursuant to a valid special permit.


Another words, the vehicle needs to be registered to "transport" it to the dunes. (In this case, transporation means, in/on a trailer (open or closed), in the bed of a truck, on the back of a motorhome etc etc.)

Mind you, it's only an infraction but try explaining to a Judge that you're boycotting the OHMVR and that's why your vehicle isn't registered.

Again, I'm not trying to "impose" my will, only posting information regarding this situation.

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Post by fatboyone »

I think some of you need to understand that Ed has been fighting the fight for all of us for many years. Although some of us (District 37) may not always agree with what Ed does, he is basically a one man show trying to cover all interests. I have been to enough meetings and ‘open houses’ to understand where Ed is coming from and what he is trying to do.

I also feel that some of you need to realize that there are a large number of ‘Hard Pack’ users that do use the areas that Ed is fighting for. Our lands in the Upper Desert are shrinking just like the ISDRA, so before we hammer Ed about the El Mirage issue please look back and see what Ed has accomplished for the OHV community.

There have only been a couple people throughout the years that have devoted their lives to protecting OHV areas and some of us are thankful for what Ed has done..

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Post by Larry Jowdy »

Mike, in another post located above, I stated:
El Mirage isn't the real issue. The real issue is that according to demographics, ISDRA should have received far more funding.

And don't forget, the guy the Ed was slapping on the back tried to hold the BLM hostige by telling them that he would fund their grants if they permanently closed the temp. closures. etc. etc. etc.

The MOST VISITED OHV area in the state, and they got peanuts.

You have to take a real hard look at the Green Sticker funds and who's voting on the grants.

And, finally, as you alluded to, I hope the Commissioners are reading this, maybe they will open their eyes to the real world vs wallyworld
What we're upset about is that the makeup of the Commission is "GREEN", and MANY people that go to the ISDRA, go ONLY to the dunes, and further, it's the most visited OHV area in the state and should have received more funds. The ISDRA is a battle ground between OHV activists and the stinking green community. And, Paul Spittler is one one of the greens who thinks his - - - - doesn't stink.

Further, Ed has openly stated that the ISDRA holds no interest to him, and he has made it clear that he makes the opinions for CORVA.

The BLM should not have been excluded from their grant request and the grant money alocated for the El Mirage vistor center could have been spent in a more wise fashion.

In Ed's defense, he did say, in a very, very, very, very, round about way that next year he would work on getting the El Centro office more money. I have no idea what that means but he did say it!!!!!

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Post by L&L Corvairs »

While I love the theory of boycotting the Green Sticker (and use Tax....ie Fee Demo), practically, I am going to agree with Larry. It isn't going to have the desired effect. The LEO's will be MORE then happy to write tickets, arrest us and/or impound our toys.It keeps them busy, and justifies their presence out there.

Additionally, it adds fuel to the media created perception that the OHV community is a 'lawless' bunch of hooligans.

Yes, the way the system is sucks and wrong, but we need to abide by it. That doesn't mean we have to live with it. We need to work within the system to make changes.
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Post by azsandrider »

fatboyone wrote:I also feel that some of you need to realize that there are a large number of ‘Hard Pack’ users that do use the areas that Ed is fighting for. Our lands in the Upper Desert are shrinking just like the ISDRA, so before we hammer Ed about the El Mirage issue please look back and see what Ed has accomplished for the OHV community.

Fatboy1:

What do you consider a "large number" of hard pack users? Does that compare to the amount of sand users who pay the fees?

Do you suppport the 1 million dollar grant for that area? Is it neccessary for the riding out there? Will this lead to more riding out there and then the problems that go with it?

Do you think it is fair to give a grant to this area but NOTHING to the busiest OHV riding area in Ca that is in the middle of an important riding access battle?

If we lose access at the dunes, you will see more people riding in your favorite hard pack areas.

Nobody is saying that other areas do not deserve grants and facilities, but the situation in the ISDRA is CRITICAL to all OHV riders. The BLM was finally starting to make improvements and getting rid of the lawlessness when the rug was pulled out from under them by not getting the grants.

There are a great many OHV owners who only ride in the dunes and they want some of their green sticker money to go to the ISDRA every year. I would even dare to say that they spend more money on their registrations yearly then has been traditionally given to the BLM by the grants.

I bet a use fee will be coming to your favorite riding area after they build that 1 million dollar ranger station. After the BLM has the station, they will need to have a steady budget to operate it.

I, for one, am suspicious of Waldhiem and CORVA. CORVA has never fought hard enough for the ISDRA, if they had, the ASA would never have been needed. I will give them credit for the hard work they have done to keep riding access open in the past, but what has he done lately for the dune user?

I think I won't renew my CORVA membership and send that money to the ASA instead. I KNOW the ASA is using the money in the fight to keep the ISDRA open.
Last edited by azsandrider on Wed Dec 10, 2003 1:36 pm, edited 3 times in total.
(The above statement is my own opinion and not that of the ASA's.)

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Post by Voice »

Well, before we "poo poo" the idea of boycotting, a little more thought may be in order.

For instance, it is quite easy to send in your registration without the $21. Have any of you ever done this with car tags?
The result is that when the LEO pulls you over he does a check and discovers that you INDEED have registered, you just don't have your tags. 99 times out of a hundred this results in a warning or fix it ticket.
Also, I've been duning for quite a while now, and my dune buggy is over 20 years old. It has NEVER had a tag on it and it has NEVER been ticketed. Road blocks aside, it is quite uncommon to be cited for this.
Finally, a boycott would not really need to be a large, well orginized event. It needs only to be large enough to gain the attention of the media. Heck, you don't even really need to do the boycott, only SAY that you are going to boycott the Green Sticker. Comming from the right sources, this could have a VERY large affect!

Look, I've read that Glamis has one of, if not THE highest compliance rate for Green Stickers in the state. Still we get nothing from OHMVR and still we get illegal road blocks, like we are all criminals or something.

If a stand is not made now, if not a boycott then some sort of very serious condemnation from the duning community that hits the media, we will be at the mercy of this god forsaken state forever.
This is a worthy cause.

Brian
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Post by Winston Cup »

Hey Brian this is a good discussion topic about boycotting the green sticker, but I'd like to suggest you start another topic on it because I'd really like to go into detail on it as well. Then I'll unfortunately throw a possible monkey wrench into your idea, which sucks, but there is another catch 22 in regards to a new study that's being done right now by ca state parks regarding registration and gas tax allotment etc. Non registered OHV will be used against us, and ya ya I know " how the heck they gonna come up with a figure for non registered if there is nothing to look up cause they ain't registered", well it's the government buddy. More on that later when this topic either gets split off or you start another one focusing on that particular issue.
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Post by azsandrider »

How about boycotting CORVA?

If the dune users send protest letters in to CORVA and don't re-new their memberships, I bet Waldhiem's interests will change.

The squeaky wheel gets the grease.
(The above statement is my own opinion and not that of the ASA's.)

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Is your spouse an ASA member??? Numbers count!!

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Post by Voice »

Why would we boycott CORVA?
They are the only orginization that actually "GETS" it when it comes to DEMO FEE.
Besides, you don't "boycott" an orginization like that, as a member you voice your opposition to a particular stance, and if the leadership won't listen to you then you vote them out.

The system can kiss my ***. It's done nothing but take my dunes and my freedoms away.

Since we started trying to work "within" the system we have spent TONS of money, done lots of studies, gone to court, educated the duners, worked with the BLM to achieve THEIR goals... and what have we gotten in return?
We are treated like criminals when we drive to Glamis (CHP checkpoints), we are treated like criminals when we camp at Glamis (Demo Fee compliance checks),
We have progressivly less and less area to dune in,
We have "at will" closures that pop up for no apparant reason,
We are assulted with threats by the LEO's (Pay or go to jail, Stay out of the closure or get the whole thing shut down)
We are forced to abide by totally unneeded sound restrictions,
We are used as shills to get the BLM's programs accepted by the public (The TRT)
OUR money is used against us, (when we can get it)
We are being divided by the BLM's policies of closures at the hills and the drags, (Gecko is effectivly divided from the Washes in this manor)
And on and on and on...

When is enough, enough?

Brian
Mahmoud Ahmedinejad in a letter to President Elect Barak Obama
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"I hope that you will be able to take fullest advantage of the opportunity to serve and leave behind a positive legacy."

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Post by LoBuck »

Voice wrote:... We are used as shills to get the BLM's programs accepted by the public (The TRT) ...
Shills? Is that how you really feel about the members of the TRT?
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Post by Winston Cup »

VOR wrote:Why would we boycott CORVA?
They are the only orginization that actually "GETS" it when it comes to DEMO FEE.
VOR / Brian
Did you ever hear any objection from Corva back when the BLM decided to implement the Demo Fee program at the ISDRA? This as you remember was prior to the ASA being formed.

Did you ever hear Corva mention anything about being against the Demo Fee being expanded to Dumont as has been openly planned and discussed by the BLM for over a year? It was pretty much a done deal it was gonna happen in regards to Dumont, remember Friends of Dumont telling us so for the past 8-9 months or so.

I never heard any objection from Ed Waldhiem the President of Corva over the ISDRA getting the Demo Fee inplemented and I don't remember anything substantial from him when Dumont was planned to have the fee implemented, remember we were all told it was inevitable by both Corva and Friends of Dumont, both organizations Ed holds a postion on. In fact I have pesonally heard him state many times that he has no problem with the demo fee at the ISDRA along with his belief the ISDRA doesn't deserve the funds they get from the Green Sticker, many people have heard that over and over. I'm not sure about El Mirage being discussed before, but he sure did change his tone when at the last minute the BLM threw Johnson Valley and Stoddard into the Demo Fee plan. Then he went ballistic didn't he? Everyone up and down the food chain sure heard from him then didn't they?

Doesn't that make you wonder a little?
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Post by Voice »

I always wonder, alot, about everything and everyone.

What he did in the past is something I have no control over.
What he is doing now is what matters.

I'm not defending Ed, but CORVA has decided to join in opposition to Demo Fee, in my opinion the biggest problem the ISDRA faces right now with the largest possibility of destroying Glamis. To me, their reasons for joining in this fight are irrelevent.

I know absolutely nothing about CORVA. I am in the process of educating myself. Just like I educated myself about the ASA.

Brian
Mahmoud Ahmedinejad in a letter to President Elect Barak Obama
"May God Almighty ... bless the leaders of societies with the courage to learn from the mistakes of predecessors,"
"I hope that you will be able to take fullest advantage of the opportunity to serve and leave behind a positive legacy."

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Post by V8rail »

Guy Chrest wrote:
VOR wrote:Why would we boycott CORVA?
They are the only orginization that actually "GETS" it when it comes to DEMO FEE.
VOR / Brian
Did you ever hear any objection from Corva back when the BLM decided to implement the Demo Fee program at the ISDRA? This as you remember was prior to the ASA being formed.

Did you ever hear Corva mention anything about being against the Demo Fee being expanded to Dumont as has been openly planned and discussed by the BLM for over a year? It was pretty much a done deal it was gonna happen in regards to Dumont, remember Friends of Dumont telling us so for the past 8-9 months or so.

I never heard any objection from Ed Waldhiem the President of Corva over the ISDRA getting the Demo Fee inplemented and I don't remember anything substantial from him when Dumont was planned to have the fee implemented, remember we were all told it was inevitable by both Corva and Friends of Dumont, both organizations Ed holds a postion on. In fact I have pesonally heard him state many times that he has no problem with the demo fee at the ISDRA along with his belief the ISDRA doesn't deserve the funds they get from the Green Sticker, many people have heard that over and over. I'm not sure about El Mirage being discussed before, but he sure did change his tone when at the last minute the BLM threw Johnson Valley and Stoddard into the Demo Fee plan. Then he went ballistic didn't he? Everyone up and down the food chain sure heard from him then didn't they?

Doesn't that make you wonder a little?
I tried to stay out of this.. but Guy this is all BS and you are spreading misinformation (I'm not surprised. I would say as usual :shock: )

Ed is (and was all the time) against Fee Demo at Dumont ... Call Mike Ahrens and he will tell you

Friends of Dumont did not accept the business plan

Ed was fighting hard that the fee at the ISDRA would stay at $30 .... others accepted the price of only $90

And yes I know this board is not the ASA,
but this topic moves the ASA into a bad light ... hopefully they will soon stop the misinformation here

Thomas

Friends of Dumont

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Ed needs to wake up.

Post by Red Dog »

Ed got appointed by Davis in a surprise 11th hour appointment. Ed praised the Davis administration.

Under the Davis Administration the OHV support budget went up 210%.

Under the Davis Administration the OHV program backed enviros in adding new environmental restrictions to existing OHV grant areas, that used to only apply to new ohv grant areas, thus discouraging operations and maintenance grants and encouraging more OHV closures.

Under the Davis administration for the first time the hard core enviro activist gained control of the OHV commission. The Democrats has always controlled the legislature, but Republican Governors used to make it clear to the Democrat legislative leaders, that they were vigorously opposed to giving environmental activist control on the one small program that was supposed to primarily server the OHVers.

Under the Davis Administration the OHV program only funded law enforcement that was closely tied to managing legal OHV areas.

Under the Davis Administration the law was interpreted in favor of all green sticker funds to chase kids in vacant lots, thus a major shift in the OHV program from being focus on providing legal OHV areas, so people would not be tempted to ride on vacant lots, to a program that tries to to both and neither well.

Ed needs to wake up now that Davis is now out and for good reason. Ed got appointed to the Commission at the urging of the Davis people. But the Davis years were not great years for the OHV program, the Davis years were the worst years for the OHV program ever.

Under Davis now 7 million dollar a year in OHV funds must go to permanent closing OHV areas and trials.

Under the Davis Administration OHVers were not really allowed to disagree with the changes in favor of the enviros, but were steered into agreeing, or being in consensus with the eviros, via the Dephie Technique using the highly paid trained facilitators.

During the Davis years the OHV program reserves were sucked up for paying for preserve lands that really were not for OHV buffers, and for paying astronomical mitigation preserve land ratios way beyond what would be asked for a paved airports or a housing development.

The Davis years were the years when the OHV program was converted over from being an OHV opportunities provision program to a OHV regulation and closure program whose policy was bend strongly in the evniros favor.

Ed has encouraged staying the Davis course, but now it is time the rest of the OHV community remind Ed of the truth of what really happend under the Davis administration.

Ed is worth waking up, for as long as he continues to support the myth that the Davis years were some how great years for the OHV program, the longer the OHV program will take to reform back to the balanced program it once was. The OHV program is now balanced heavily in the enviros favor, both in terms of program spending and policy direction. The OHV program pendulum is stuck on the far left side of the clock wall, and needs to pried from the embedded wood to swing back to the middle..

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lae enforcent and vacant lots

Post by Red Dog »

For clarification prior to the Davis Administration, as Ed knows this full well, green sticker funds were only used for law enforcement if is was closely associated with managing legal OHV areas.

The Davis administration reinterpreted the law so OHV funds could be used even if no legal OHV areas were involved of provided. The Davis Admin. steered the OHV leaders, like Ed. into agreeing with this. OHV grants are now given to areas with no legal OHV opportunites at all, so they can chase down "unauthorized" OHV use. What used to be one of the best reasons to provide for legal OHV areas is no longer so compelling. Because you can get OHV funds to chase away OHVers, even if no legal place to ride OHVs is provided as an alternative.

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Post by Sandemon »

Red Dog, You seem to have a few facts skewed, are you aware that the four anti-access members on the Commision were not appointed by Davis? The 3 people that were appointed by Davis are pro OHV the other 4 members are appointed 2 by the Speaker of the House and 2 by The President of the Senate. Both of these seats are held by strong Democrats and are the reason that the board is skewed the wrong way.
The whole system needs to be revamped and I would like to see the Green Sticker Commision voted on by the people who have Green Stickers, every Green Sticker you own gets you 1 vote, or at the least the appointees have to be confirmed by the OHV leadership group so as not to make it a way to pay people back for political support. 8) :) :twisted:
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History and reality

Post by Red Dog »

The Governor has always had three appointments. Administrations and Governors have always lobbied the legislature to get what they want. The legislatrue has always had four appointments. The Democrats have always controlled the legislature.

So, what was the big change the led to the OHVers loosing control of of the OHV Commission? The election of the Davis administration,

Wilson and previiious goivernors prior to Davis made it a priority for the administration to let the legislature know they did not want the one and only program the serves the OHV community, run by hard core evironmental activist. Governor Wilson insisted that moderate OHVers and evironentalist run the OHV program. One of the First things the Davis Administration said, it is even published in environmental activiist news articlcle on the internet, was that they would lake control of the OHV program from the OHVers, they would literally descriminiate against pro OHV people on the Commission and Staff in favor of shifting the balance in favor of the evironmental activist. --

""""'
''' Putting the brakes on OHVs

Friday, July 14, 2000
By Joshua Chaffin



In her search for peace and quiet in the woods, a California woman has singlehandedly changed how the state regulates off-highway vehicle use.
Karen Schambach moved to the Sierra Nevada foothills of California in 1984. Six months into the construction of her out-of-the-way cabin, the intrusive buzz of dirt-bikes startled her.

Asking around to find out what authorities could do to keep the bikes out of earshot, Schambach learned that the state's Off-Highway Vehicle Division monitors off-road trails in California.


Karen Schambach took action when the noise of off-highway vehicles shattered her peace. She monitors OHV damage across California, including the Sierra Nevada area of northern California.
Convinced that the agency was delinquent in its enforcement of environmental regulations, Schambach began a 15-year battle to force the division to comply.

Schambach delivered a scathing report to the state of California last year in which she alleged that the OHV division caused more environmental damage than it prevented — and that the agency may be getting more than its fair share of gas tax money from the state.

In her report, Schambach argued the many off-road vehicle enthusiasts who worked in the OHV division rarely enforced environmental regulations. Moreover, she maintained, the regulations governing OHV use were unclear to the public.

Schambach has since made more than a few enemies in her hometown of Georgetown. Resentful off-road vehicle enthusiasts have sent her threatening mail, buzzed her house with motorcycles and even showed up on her property with guns.

But Schambach also found some sympathetic ears in state government.

She contended that the OHV division used faulty logic to secure its funding — at taxpayers' expense. In theory, the sale of registration decals to off-highway vehicle recreationists was to fund the program. But, Schambach explains, "After only a year, they found the sticker money wasn't enough. From then on, [the program received] 1 percent of the state gas tax — about 35 million dollars a year."


Schambach surveys the damage after a dirt bike endurance race in Eldorado National Forest of California's Sierra Nevada mountain range.
Today, gasoline taxes fund 80 percent of the OHV program. But there are twice as many illegal off-highway vehicle users without stickers as there are registered users. And the division includes these users in the count it uses to argue for its portion of the gas tax.

Schambach argues that this policy effectively rewards illegal off-highway vehicle enthusiasts for evading the law.

No other group of recreationists in California gets $30 million a year, but no other sport supports an industry worth $5 billion annually. There are 120 official off-highway recreation areas in California, with 100,000 miles of trail for sport driving. However, the more trail managers "maintain" those trails, the more they cause environmental damage, Schambach explains.

Don Amador, one of the seven OHV division commissioners, defends the division as a "model program." Of Schambach's report, he says, "Almost every sentence has some sort of fabrication or lie in it."

But even Dave Widell, the division's new deputy director, concedes the agency has always been "kind of controlled by the users" without enough input from environmentalists and homeowners.

Schambach says Widell is making a difference. OHV program officials are rewriting environmental regulations with input from the public. Schambach hasn't seen all the reforms she asked for, but Widell says there is a new gas tax study in the works and that the commission will no longer be stacked with OHV enthusiasts.

All indications show that OHV sports are managed more effectively in California, thanks in large part to Schambach's tenacity.

Terry Davis of the Sierra Club is positively giddy about the turn of events. "I never thought I'd hear myself saying this ... but all of a sudden, they're listening to us!"


And this ===

""BLM Reconsiders; She Made a Difference
9/18/2000


The Bureau of Land management, long criticized for allowing off-road vehicles freedom to damage environmentally sensitive areas for which it is responsible, is considering new policies.

"The strategy will also enable the BLM to spend scarce funding resources on managing OHV use rather than on OHV-related litigation, protests, appeals and Freedom of Information Act requests," said director Tom Fry. (OHV, off-highway vehicle = ORV, off-road vehicle)

BLM manages 264 million acres of public land. Under existing regulations 95 million acres are open to unrestricted OHV use. Of the remaining land, half is designated "limited," which is supposed to limit vehicles to designated roads and trails. Only 4 percent is closed to all vehicular use.

The last policy paper spelling out the regulations for OHV use was issued in 1977, when far fewer vehicles were in use. Not only have numbers vastly increased since then, but newer models are more powerful and master rougher terrain, able to go where none have gone before.

BLM announced a public process for developing the new regulations. Its home page (http://www.blm.gov/) provides information, the schedule, and ways for citizens to participate. (By the time you read this, the deadline for comments will have passed.)

We spent some time browsing the home page and its numerous subsections and found many general statements but few answers to such questions as. How much of BLM land is leased? How many employees does BLM have in the field?

Over years we have spent many days exploring BLM's western lands and visited many of their field offices where we found excellent information and advice, including local maps showing which lands are BLM's. Without maps one doesn't know. Only special areas such as campgrounds are signed. A large percentage of BLM's lands is leased, much of it to ranchers. BLM's personnel is spread thin; rarely have we met anyone in the field.

Ranchers who lease land use it as if it were their own, including fencing. It would be surprising if ranchers, who use OHVs in their work, haven't demanded control of recreational users who drive OHVs across their land, leaving gates open, spooking their cattle.

Taking control of OHV use would have been easier had BLM acted a quarter century ago, before the explosive growth in OHVs. Now stricter regulations will be opposed by powerful lobbies of users and manufacturers and difficult to enforce with BLMs limited field personnel. BLM may not have seen the last of litigation and appeals

She Made a Difference
Karen Schambach sought peace and quiet when she built her cabin in California's Sierra Nevada foothills in 1984. Instead she was harassed by dirt bikes roaring nearby. Seeking help she learned the state has an Off-Highway Vehicle Division. She got no help there but persisted and gradually learned more about the Division and its personnel.

Many Division employees, she found, are OHV enthusiasts with little interest in making or enforcing regulations. Regulations weren't clear, nor were trails properly posted.

She began gathering information about the environmental damage OHVs were causing. California has 120 OHV recreation areas with 100,000 miles of trails. Schambach found these supposedly managed trails were among the worst. A photograph published by the Environmental News Network shows her crouching on a trail that looks more than six feet wide, gouged about two feet deep by ORVs.

The state program was to be funded by sale of decals to OHV users. When that wasn't enough the program began to share gasoline tax proceeds. Gas taxes now provide 80 percent of the division budget. Half of OHV users don't bother to buy decals, but they're counted in the request for gas tax funds.

Schambach harassed the Off-Highway Vehicle Division, visited sites overrun by OHVs, asked for information, wrote letters. As word got around she was harassed at her mountain cabin. One of the division's commissioners brushed her off as a fabricating nuisance.

But her persistence worked. Times have changed. Dave Widell, recently named deputy director, agrees the agency has been "kind of controlled by the users," paying too little heed to other recreationists and property owners. Regulations are being rewritten with input invited from the public. Widell says the division will no longer be stacked with OHV enthusiasts.

"All of a sudden they're listening to us," said Terry Davis of the Sierra Club.
April 2004
Can Railroads Be Saved?
When the golden spike was driven, railroads replaced

FOREST SERVICE HIRES PUBLIC RELATIONS FIRM
When the U. S. Forest Service released its Sierra Nevada

NEW MEXICANS FIGHT TO KEEP OIL AND GAS DRILLERS OFF OTERO MESA
When rancher Tweeti Blancourt stood before and audience

FOREST GUARDIANS ACCUSES BLM
Forest Guardians has published a 70-page report

Archives'''''''


So ==

"Widell says there is a new gas tax study in the works and that the commission will no longer be stacked with OHV enthusiasts. "

"Widell says the division will no longer be stacked with OHV enthusiasts. "

So the OHV Commission is now stacked with evironmental acitivist, and the OHV prgram always sides with the eviros when it comes to policy formations and interpreting the laws. It is affimative action for the eviros and a quata system that gives them favor and insiider control over the OHV program. Yes we do get to have enviro endorsed token pet OHV advisors on key committees as long as they agree with what the eviros want. Hec the eviros insiders now even get to hand pick what staff is assigned to work on.

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the Truth is

Post by Red Dog »

Despite what Schamback and the Davis Admiinistration claims, the OHV Division was never stacked with OHV enthusiast., only few staffers out of over a hundered are OHV enthusiast. For most it is just a job. In fact even before Davis, OHV employees were much more likely to be a member of an evironmental organization that an OHV ethusiast. Besides why is it that you can be "professional" and be a member of an eviro ogranization, and not professional and be an OHVers? Karen Schamback PEER organization defends public employees who are members of environmental organizations, yet she paints OHV staff as somehow being bad if they happen to like OHVs. Go figure.

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Ed is not a colored horse, he had blinders on.

Post by Red Dog »

Like many, Ed was deceived. It is kind of a Christian thing to want believe the best in a New Administration. However, the OHV program was not a mess or being run badly prior to the Davis administration. Once the program was told to do regulations, they did regulations, unlike the other grant programs in the Parks Dept. which simply got themselves exempted from regulations. The problem with the Davis administration, was that if there was a way, or choice to interpret, or opportunity bend a policy, or law, in favor of the enviros, they did so - in a painfully consistent manner.

Deputy Directors Lee Chauvet, Cliff Cliddon, and Russ Sanford ran the OHV program within the law and fairly. The OHV Commissions under chairmans McGarvey, Morris, Amador, Bishop, Livermore, Chappie, and yes even Waldhiem, did not run the OHV Commission poorly, illegally, or unfairly prior to Davis Administration, quite the opposite, the OHV Commission is not even close to being as fair as it used to be The OHV staff obeyed the law, were fair, competent, and honorable prior to Davis. The one the ground resource management was actually better prior to the Davis Administration. The OHV program did a better job of maintaining the trails, facilities and the resources. People who had OHV operational experience were allowed to do their jobs, prior to Davis.

The environs put out un-true propaganda papers - like the Road to Ruin, and - In the Money and out of Contro - to pave the way for the take over the OHV program, with the aid of liberal Democrats, including Davis people.

The OHVer were actually made to feel guilty for running a good OHV program, in a much more cost efficient way much. This guilt trip contributed to the OHVers losing much ground in terms of OHV policy and law outcomes, and in terms of how the funds are now being spent.

If the reappointed Davis people are truly on the OHVers side, then they miust prove it by letting the governor know he needs to use his considerable political power to make sure the legislature gives at least one of their next appoints to either to an OHVer, or at least a truly neutral person, and not again a hard core enviro activist.

It is outrageous that the California OHVers have to put up with a hard core environmental activist majority on the OHV Commission. If the OHV community had any real metal they would mobilize the OHV community to go for Bush in the 2004 election in California. If just 3% of the vote were to be swung in Bushes favor in California, that would make the Democrats repent big time for their political insult to the OHV community- because it would cost them not only the Presidency for sure, but assure that the Republicans keep control of both the US House and Senate for many years to come.

There are 650,000 green sticker households in California, and OHV recreation contributes 7 billion dollars year to the California economy.. If The OHV community really wanted to they could swing elections, because often eletions hing on just one or two percentage points. The enviros will always vote predominately for the Dems, but the OHVers are what is called - swing voters - . The Dems can take the enviros for granted but not the OHVers.

Buy the way - Schwarzenegger can kiss his long term presidential aspirations good by, if his administration does what the Davis Administration did, and screws the workering class swing voters, like the OHVers. The democrats can favor the eviros, they should not abuse OHVers to such an extreme in the process. Let the enviros get their billion dollar open space bond measures, just let the millions of OHVers have a little real control over the relatively small OHV program. What ever happen to the political rabble rousers like Louie McKey and Bob Wick. Are we mice or are we men and women, it is time to remind Schwarzenegger why Davis was recalled, and ask him why the Davis people are still running the OHV program like they did under Davis.

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Post by Sandemon »

Reddog, The OHV commission does not serve at the will of the Gov. they are appointed by other people as well. The Davis Administration was not responsible for the anti OHV members. They were put there by other people that Davis had no control over. Davis made many other mistakes but the OHV Commission was not one of them, he appointed the 3 ballanced people not the 4 anti-access people. 8) :) :twisted:
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Post by Winston Cup »

Sandemon
I think your missing a lot of what he's said here. You might want to run through some of his post's again. It's easy to miss, there's a ton of info here. Basically what Red Dog is saying here and in other threads in this forum is that the Davis administration and the democratically controlled legislature had virtually neutered the OHV program from a root level and Davis appointing 3 Pro OHV commissioners to what was already an extreme environmentally stacked deck was simply a superficial gester in an attempt to gain the support of certain pro OHV organizations. For the most part it worked. You might have missed it but during the election we did have an individual from CORVA telling us how good Davis had been to the OHV community. On the surface it did look like he was helping us, but as we get underneath things a bit, it's obvious it was just a token gesture. What could it hurt for him to toss all three our way, we were still out numbered on the commission and deep within the department his other appointments within state parks (ie: Dave Widdell) were tweeking things against us anyway. It's called politics. Red Dog actually covered this same explaination but maybe it wasn't very clear.
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The Governor can get legislative help if it is impotant..

Post by Red Dog »

It is not that the Governor controls the legislative appointments per say, but he does have tremendous clout if he wants something, due to the line item veto on the budget and due to the veto power of legislation. Legislatures love to get laws passed, and they love to get funds for their districts. But, the Governor can block laws for being passed, and money from going to a distict in the budget with a stroke of a pen. If the Governor makes it a priority, then it becomes real important.

Prior to the Davis administration the Democrats always controlled both houses of the State legislature. But they never gave the eviros a majority, even though they could have, because previous Governors and their administrations lobbied hard and insisted that the Democrats in the legislature not give control of the OHV program to enviros, let alone hard core enviros. The legislators too once had some respect for the OHV community, but we collectively lost a big chunk of that respect, when it became clear that a couple of our most key OHVer leaders, had traded their influnece for the gaining of position, token pet projects, or appointments, and in doing so sacraficed more noble prinicples.

Certain insiders can tell and know a dirty little secret first hand about just what happed the last time OHVers could have regained control of the OHMVR Commission. A prominent OHV leader was even promised by the Assembly Speaker that he would appoint an OHVer, because he agreed it was a rotten deal for the OHVers to have hard core enviros in the majority control over the OHV Commission. So what happened and how did it hapen? For one thing is the Davis Administration did not lobby with any vigor for the OHVers side with the Legislature over the Commission appointment. Ask the ORBA lobbyist, or the Western Regional AMA representative, about the real truth behind who all were responsible, for the OHVers having that promised OHV commission appointment snatched right out from under our noses, when it was only hours from being in hand, by the eviros.

Now who was the Resources Agency Secretary, oh yes Mary Nichols, and she worked for who before getting that job, oh yes, she was a lead attorney for the Natural Resources Defense Fund. Mary Nichols created a brand new high priced position, when agency was contemplating layoffs and even thinking about closing down due to budget problems, and she appointed who to that position?

How can anyone really wonder why the Davis administration did not fight all that hard to give the OHVer back control of the OHV commission.? The Davis people said in writing that it was wrong that the OHVers controlled the OHV Commision, and promised to put a stop to that, but has anyone got the Davis people, who are stiill in charge of the OHV program, to promise in writing to put a stop to the eviros being in control of the OHV program? No? What does it take to break the spell the enviros have put on the OHV program, in Jesus name what does it take? It first takes admitting the truth to ourselves, and the truth is we all were duped.

The Davis administration was in bed with the eviros and they worked hand and glove together in a well coordinated effort. It is one thing to be a duped or bamboozled, it is another thing to keep being duped and bamboozled, by the same bunch, even when the details of one curdy scam and rotton deal after another is carefully explained over and over.

Even though 2/3 rds of rest of the public recalled the Davis Administration and tossed his terrible administration out, some gullible and beholding OHV leaders, want to keep the OHV program being run by the Davis Administration's people.

Lets make this simple - the OHVers were screwed royal by the Davis Administration, in so many ways to Sunday that it is not even funny.

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Karen Schambach

Post by Red Dog »

Her name is on all the Center for Biodivsity press releases about lawsuits to close the Dunes, and many other OHV areas and trials too.. Yet the Davis people put her on a special select committee to tell the OHV staff what their recommendations would be on funding that helps to keep the Diunes and other OHV areas open by properly operating them.

It is called a CONFILICT OF INTEREST !!!.

The Davis Administration people knew all about her involvent in numerous lawsuits to close OHV areas, and her attempts close OHV areas by cutting off operational funding - like she did in the case of the Rock Creek Area on the Eldorado National Forest. Go back and read the Oct. 2003 OHMVR Commissin minutes to see just who was on this officially sactioned ("ad hoc") OHV grants committtee, that even included the Chief of the State OHV Division.

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Re: Karen Schambach

Post by SANDUNERS »

Red Dog wrote:like she did in the case of the Rock Creek Area on the Eldorado National Forest
Let me quess,,, my favorite lady;
These concerns were echoed by Karen Schambach, a member of the Center for Sierra Nevada Conservation (formerly FAWN), who argues that there are as many as 18 miles of roads and trails in one square mile in some sections of the Eldorado National Forest.

"Road density is directly related to watershed damage and wildlife impacts," said Schambach. "It's a pretty serious thing. (The interim road rule) is a move in the right direction."
http://www.mtdemocrat.com/news/roads051399.shtml
Back in 1992, Karen Schambach started protesting how the Off-Highway Motor Vehicle Recreation Commission awarded grants funded by fuel taxes, off-highway vehicle registration fees and vehicle recreation area entrance fees. With $36 million, California’s is the nation’s largest off-highway vehicle program.
Environmental concerns weren’t considered in “a program that was run by the (off-road) users,” said Schambach, now state coordinator for Public Employees for Environmental Responsibility.
http://www.americansandassociation.org/ ... light=peer

Isn't the Internet wonderful... 8)

I only know first hand how she operates... as our club was "suckered" into a little film she helped make AGAINST us in the dunes. :x

http://www.glamisonline.org/downloads/PeerVideo.rm

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Patterson, Schambach, and the OHV program a close knit team

Post by Red Dog »

Yes the internet is great. I wonder why the State OHV program always puts Karen Schambach on exclusive small hand picked committee's to form State's OHV program policies, and decide OHV grant programs funding recommendaitons. I am sure Marge Sutton, or Huge Mcquigganm former OHV commissioners, or other more moderate eviros, have the background it takes to serve on such committees. I wonder why they alway use Karan Schamback, who is involved in so many lawsuits and efforts to close or decimate OHV use, and they always the same old couple hand picked OHV leaders on these committees. Naw I do not wonder, I know, the State OHV program is as much of a team with Schambach, as Shambach is team with Danial Patterson. See below;

Center for Biological Diversity

Protecting endangered species and wild places through
science, policy, education, and environmental law.

NEWS RELEASE for immediate release Thursday, December 20, 2001

Contact:
Daniel Patterson, Desert Ecologist, 909.659.6053 or 520.906.2159 cel
Karen Schambach, PEER 530.333.2545 or 530.305.0503 cel
More Information: Algodones Dunes, Goldenstate Biodiversity Initiative


CONSERVATIONISTS TAKE TO THE SAND IN DUNES DEFENSE MISSION.
ENVIRONMENTAL MONITORING AT DUNES STEPPED UP OVER HOLIDAYS.

Press Release
For Immediate Release: Friday August 29, 2003
Contact: Karen Schambach, PEER (530) 333-2545
Daniel Patterson, Center for Biological Diversity (520) 623-5252 ext. 306

PRESS RELEASE

with CENTER FOR BIOLOGICAL DIVERSITY - Idyllwild office

For immediate release: Thursday, December 20, 2001

Contact: Daniel Patterson, Desert Ecologist, CBD-Idyllwild 909-659-6053 or by cellphone: 520-906-2159

Karen Schambach, PEER 530-333-2545 or by cellphone: 530-305-0503

CONSERVATIONISTS TAKE TO THE SAND IN DUNES DEFENSE MISSION

Environmental Monitoring At Dunes Stepped Up Over Holidays

BLM Reassigns Key Manager After Political Pressure by Off-Roading and Grazing Interests

January 30th, 2002

Contact Info:
Jay Tutchton, Earthjustice, 303-871-6034
Daniel Patterson, Desert Ecologist, Center for Biological Diversity 909-659-6053 x306, 520-906-2159 (cell)
Karen Schambach, California Coordinator, PEER, 530-333-2545

Print-Friendly Version

BLM STALLS SAND MOUNTAIN PLAN AS BUSY WEEKEND APPROACHES
Bush Administration Working Only With Off-roaders

Conservationists to Monitor Algodones Dunes Again

Citing the need to protect a fragile landscape and the insufficiency of police staffing in the trampled Algodones Dunes area near El Centro, groups of environmentalists will be monitoring the dunes during the Presidents Day weekend for the third holiday weekend in a row.

Since November 2000, nearly 50,000 acres of the dunes have been protected from off-road vehicles under an agreement struck by the Center for Biological Diversity, Public Employees for Environmental Responsibility (PEER) and the Sierra Club, five off-road groups and BLM. The agreement closed a central part of the dunes to off-roading to protect the endangered Peirson's milkvetch and other rare dune species.

Center for Biological Diversity
Public Employees for Environmental Responsibility

Federal Court Upholds Off-Road Vehicle Ban at Algodones Dunes
Industry loses anti-environmental lawsuit;
court says 'no merit' to claim of no need for closure

NEWS RELEASE: for immediate release Wednesday, June 25, 2003

Contact:
Daniel R. Patterson, Desert Ecologist, Center 520.623.5252 x 306 or 520.906.2159
Karen Schambach, Public Employees for Environmental Responsibility 530.333.2545
More Information: Center's Algodones Dunes Campaign , Court Order Denying Plaintiffs' Motion for SJ

ENVIRONMENTALISTS & U.S. BUREAU OF LAND MANAGEMENT AGREE TO PROTECT LARGE AREAS OF THE ALGODONES DUNES FROM OFF-ROAD VEHICLES IN FIRST ACTION FOR CALIFORNIA DESERT LAWSUIT SETTLEMENT
PEIRSONS MILKVETCH, COLORADO DESERT FRINGE-TOED LIZARD, ALGODONES DUNES SUNFLOWER AND MANY OTHER RARE ENDEMIC DESERT SPECIES TO BE PROTECTED THROUGH MORE BALANCED DUNES MANAGEMENT
ALGODONES DUNES, IMPERIAL COUNTY, S.E. CA — A coalition of environmental groups led by the Tucson-based Center for Biological Diversity, and including the Sierra Club and Public Employees for Environmental Responsibility (PEER), settled on Friday the first major issue in their 10.5 million acre, 24 endangered species lawsuit against the U.S. Bureau of Land Management (BLM) by agreeing to habitat protection by limiting off-road vehicle (ORV) use through large area closures on the Algodones Dunes.

Feds won't probe biologist's Klamath fish kill charges

March 23, 2003

Associated Press

Sacramento, California - The government won't investigate a federal biologist's complaint that his recommendations were illegally rejected before last year's massive Klamath River salmon kill, though a judge is allowing the testimony in a lawsuit.

The office can't substitute its judgment for that of the National Marine Fisheries Service, even if the service relied on conflicting science, Associate Special Counsel Leonard Dribinsky concluded this month.

He also rejected the cause-and-effect argument advanced by Kelly and other critics: Although the die-off followed the low water allocation, "we are unable to conclude ... NMFS must have engaged in gross mismanagement."

Karen Schambach of Public Employees for Environmental Responsibility said the office was "punting (on) a controversial case ... It's not a question of conflicting science. Any science you pick still shows jeopardy" to the salmon. PEER represents Kelly in his whistleblower complaint.

Land Managers Sued Over Off Road Vehicles

SACRAMENTO, California, February 11, 2002 (ENS) ‚ Eldorado National Forest officials have failed to obey laws for managing off road vehicles (ORVs) on the 786,000 acre forest in California's Sierra Nevada range, charges a lawsuit filed Friday by three conservation groups.

ORV use off designated roads and trails is uncontrolled and causing widespread damage to soils, wildlife and vegetation, the suit charges.

Eldorado County based Center for Sierra Nevada Conservation (CSNC) and co-plaintiffs Center for Biological Diversity (CBD) and California Wilderness Coalition (CWC) say that the Eldorado's Off Road Vehicle Plan failed to analyze the effects of ORV use on the forest. The lawsuit charges the Forest with violations of the National Environmental Policy Act and the National Forest Management Act.

The suit also challenges the Rock Creek ORV area decision, adopted in 1999, saying it failed to address impacts to soils and wildlife, including the declining Pacific deer herd and California spotted owls.

Karen Schambach, president of the Center for Sierra Nevada Conservation, says lack of analysis renders the Forest Service unable to restrict ORV use on the Forest.

"In lieu of enforceable Forest Orders, the Eldorado relies on signs that are routinely vandalized," Schambach explained. "Their law enforcement officers can't cite riders going off designated routes; the riders know this, and the irresponsible ones are taking full advantage of the situation. You can go almost anywhere on that forest and see significant damage."

The Eldorado's Land Management Plan, adopted in 1989, restricts ORV use to a designated route system, but failed to analyze the impacts of the route designations to soils, fish and wildlife and other recreationists. Appeals of that decision to the Forest Service's national office resulted in an order to the Eldorado to complete analysis of their trail plan by May 1997.

The Eldorado has not initiated those studies, nor even indicated that it intends to do so, the lawsuit states.

"The plan is yet another indication that the BLM has given up on its obligation to manage offroad vehicles in an environmentally responsible manner. Instead it represents the Bush administration's philosophy of pandering to offroaders, regardless of how damaging they are to natural and cultural resources," said Karen Schambach, director of the Public Employees for Environmental Responsibility.

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Post by The Oldtimer »

Red Dog, the connection between Shambach, Spitler and Patterson is not news..."we" have been aware of the connection ever since the battle began. I've seen the PEER video, read part of (I couldn't finish it...I wanted to puke.) Spitler's "Off-road to ruin", and had to suffer through all of Patterson's BS press releases. The adage "Birds of a feather flock together" has never been more appropriate when describing these three...

Other than that, your posts are informative...I look forward to the next one.
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It is not just what we understand, it is what they don't

Post by Red Dog »

"We" may understand Spitler and Schambach are not on the OHVers side, both work full time to further restrict or eliminate OHV opportunities. Spitler was just given the top wilderness Society award, in the presense of Senator Babara Boxer, at a fund raiser to get more money to push for more Wilderness. Wilderness is primarily defined by the fact that it is closed to motor vehicle access. So Spilter's goal is still more and more and more Wilderness, land that is permanently closed to OHV recreation.

Read this quote for a Waldheim fan.

"Now I see Paul Spitler in an orange CORVA
jacket talking about how much fun he has with his personal (Good Friend)
Ed Waldheim running around in Ed's rail. Paul talked about how Ed took
him out and showed him why the best way to keep people on the trails
is to just properly maintain them, and why most of the money should go
to O&M. Paul also said OK guys lay off me I don't want to hear any more
suggestions about an OHV Chairman Dunk Tank fundraiser. "

Ed is one of the top, if not the top OHV leader in California. Many follow Ed's lead, so if Ed is fooled, many other OHVers get fooled along with him. Thus the hammering the point through that Spitler and Schambach have a long and current history of undermining, opposing, and suing to close or curtail OHV use. They are not true friends of OHV, they are OHVs worst and most active adversaries. Ed is being fooled, and he is fooling other OHVers by his foolishness.

Eds bunch cannot counter this argument if the argument is made, and Ed own suporters are not all wimps - soon they will start questioning Ed, as to why he puts so much faith in people, who have shown so little good faith in their dealings with us OHVers.

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Post by tomjeeps2 »

Red Dog are you for real? Tell us a little about your self you seem
to very much in joy talking about other people, who I very much
respect in the off road community. (Quack Quack) :wink:

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TJ2

Post by Red Dog »

I am not important, but you are I hear, so I quoted you, yes I am assuming you stand by what you say, so why don't answer the question? I put out lot of facts and information, and stand by this information and the facts, that are matters of record. You have not disputed the accuracy of any of the information brought forth, except for how long Spitler wore a CORVA jacket, he wore it for half the meeting. You like the current OHV program direction and seem to be saying don't fight that direction, do not rock the boat, stay the course, OHVers should not try to change the direction of the OHV program, even if it is clearly going the wrong way.

The undisputed facts demonstrate that this new fangeld Davis/eviro consensus driven stuff has not really resulted in any good deals, policies, proeceedures, or regulatons, or spending patterns, or allocationed funding categories, or elecments in any of the new laws passed recently that have actually been of clear benefit to the average OHVers interest. But, the enviros have benefited mightly and consistently from the OHV prgram's recent direction. It needs to be asked, given the facts as presented, why would any of our OHV leaders put so much trust in the driection of an OHV administration, that has delivered so little to, and taken so much from, the OHVers over the past five years?
Last edited by Red Dog on Mon Apr 26, 2004 7:48 am, edited 3 times in total.

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Post by Larry Jowdy »

Speaking (writing) solely as a dune user and NOT as a representative or spokesperson for any of the organizations I'm associated with, these are my thoughts.
It seems to me that a great deal of information regarding the leadership and directions taken has been posed.

In an effort to quell in-house dissention, I, would like to hear or read some comments from Mr. Waldheim regarding Red Dog's posted information. It behooves Mr. Waldheim to either defend his actions or admit to the information.

After all, Mr. Waldheim is representing us, the OHV'er of California.

In my opinion, Red Dog seems to have a great deal of information that seems entirely logical and doesn't seem to be a smear tactic but, and again, IN MY OPINION, nothing more than the deliverance of information either true or false.

In closing, I truly respect those of you that have jumped into the fire to defend the allegations and information as posed.
Your loyality is admirable but, ONLY Mr. Waldheim can attest to or defend the information given in this thread. Rather than hersay, we are entitled to direct facts.

I too agree that Mr. Waldheim has been a champion to the OHV community and he has pretty much devoted his life to our sport however, we, the OHV community need to know if this information is true or false.

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Post by tomjeeps2 »

Hi still waiting to hear a duck! :wink:

Quack Quack quack....Don't Look Back.

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Where is the duck?

Post by Red Dog »

Is the duck ducking a challenge.

What about the 210% OHV support budget increase in just five years, is the duck ducking that one?

What about being made to pay for 8.5 to 27 to 1 mitigation ratios for an OHV park, more than even a paved airport or housing development would be asked to pay?

What about the OHV program paying $250 per hour for the contractor who helped negotiate this great mitigation deal for us OHVers?

What about not recording the public comments during the public comment period a the last two full regular OHV commission meetings, the first time this has ever happened in the entire twenty years that the OHV Commission has existed?

What about finally pointing out the real truth (after takng five years of unfair bashing) that previous OHV Deputy Directors, and the previous OHV Commission Chairman's ran honorable OHV programs, and did not run the lawless program that the enviros claimed?

What about the Dear Creek Project up north, were enviros needed quick funds to beat the close of an option period on land, so they concocted the idea that their land, that was five miles away from an OHV park, was some how a "buffer" for the OHV park, so they could get their hands on 11.9 million dollars in OHV trust funds?

What about this Commission/OHV administration grants recomendation Committee of four, made up of Spitler, Schambach, and out of respect the Duck can inform us who else was on this committee and how if functioned..

What about the fact that next year the OHV grant budget will be cut 7 million dollars below what it is this year?

What about the OHV program having to spend 7 million dollars a year on "restoration" meaning permanent OHV closures, true or not?

If all of the above is true, and it is, do you suppose that the top administrator responsible for most of these moves deserves the highest honor us OHVers can give? Or do you think some of us OHVers have every right to question, and even criticize, what the OHV program has been doing with public OHV “trust” funds?

What about paying sophisticated contracted experts, more than the Governor himself gets paid, to apply the highly systematic Dephi Technique to carefully steer OHV public input?

The cost to the OHV program of all these deals, and decisions, and methods, adds up to over 100 million dollars in OHV trust funds. And this is just a partical list of the OHV program's problematic approaches to conducting the public's business.

All these things needs to be given an honest look, and a real two sided discussion. I too am waiting to hear from the duck, because how long can some degree of responsibility for this poor work be ducked.

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Post by OBSESSED »

RedDog wrote:
Is the duck ducking a challenge

Hummmmmmm...
Is the Quack baiter thinking smack?
Is the duck talker on track?
Is RedDog talking smack?
Will the Green horse fight back?
Not me I never attack.
You'd think me out of wack!

Sit on the fence....
You'll end up with wood up your's!

Have a nice day

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Post by AlxCook »

Red Dog...................you got my ears!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Pretty accurate information from what I hear. Would like to hear from Ed................................ :cry:
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Post by SANDUNERS »

Now Ed has been my hero... :P but I'm now taking a better look myself... :cry:
OHV Commission Denies $1.1M to BLM Over Dunes Flap

Law enforcement request was fully funded last month

In a historic vote for sustainable land management, the State of California Off-Highway Vehicle Commission January 23 turned down a $1.1 million US Bureau of Land Management (BLM) funding request for management of the Algodones Dunes near El Centro. The BLM has been under fire from the commission and conservationists for poor dunes management and proposing a plan to roll-back endangered species protections. (OPENING THE TEMPORARY CLOSURES THEY WANT CLOSED FOREVER)
Conservation and low-impact recreation buffs backed the commission.

"The commission did what it had to do to ensure limited state funds go to on-the-ground conservation, not environmental destruction." said Daniel R. Patterson, Desert Ecologist with the Center for Biological Diversity in Idyllwild. "On-going BLM management problems at the dunes, plus a imminent plan to roll back environmental protections at the dunes, convinced the commissioners not to keep throwing money at this destructive black hole."

The seven-member commission of governor and legislature appointees decides how to dole out an average of $40 million annually of state gas tax funds to support off-road vehicle management in California. Federal agencies such as the BLM and Forest Service have mainly used the funds to increase ORV use, often causing environmental conflicts. For years, the BLM dunes request has been the largest in the state. The commission this year is favoring conservation spending to mitigate and more sustainably manage ORV use.

"We applaud the OHV Commission's decision to deny BLM El Centro's request for OHV Trust fund money to for the Algodones Sand Dunes." said Terry Weiner, Conservation Coordinator with the Desert Protective Council in San Diego. "The BLM and the Department of the Interior have refused to come up with a plan to manage the Dunes for protection of rare and threatened plants and animals who live there, nor has the BLM shown an interest in promoting sustainable types of recreation at the Dunes." she added. "The Commission has indicated the State's desire to cease funding an agency which will not conform to the principles of sound recreation and resource management."
http://www.faultline.org/news/2003/01/algodones.html


OR-1-CD-290 - BLM EL MIRAGE DEVELOPMENT 04
Amount requested: $3,532,000. Staff recommended amount: $1,073,000.
Commissioner Waldheim requested that the amount of OR-1-CD-290 be reduced to $1,000,000.
Commissioner Waldheim moved and Commissioner Prizmich seconded the motion that OR-1-CD-290 be approved for $1,000,000.
Chair Spitler called for the vote. MOTION CARRIED UNANIMOUSLY.
OR-1-CD-293 - BLM EL CENTRO FO LAW ENFORCEMENT 04
Amount requested: $1,127,000. Staff recommended amount: $427,000.
Commissioner Spitler moved and Commissioner Waldheim seconded the motion to approve OR-1-CD-293 in the amount of $256,000 of which $84,000 is for East Mesa Patrol.
http://ohv.parks.ca.gov/pages/1140/file ... inutes.pdf

So a MILLION goes to one area and the other receives $171,000 LESS than the staff recommends and $84.000 goes somewhere else of $256.000. So they now have $172.000 from a 1.1 MILLION request? And WHOM seconded this motion of 7 commissioners??? :cry:

So start looking this information up for yourself, it is ALL found on the INTERNET... :D
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