The Life of an OHV "Green Sticker" Dollar

Issues relating to the California Off Highway Motor Vehicle Recreation / Green Sticker Fund

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Post by crash » Tue Jun 05, 2007 6:53 am

Good stuff here in the last couple days.

Thanks for posting that.

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Post by DRAGON PILOT » Mon Mar 03, 2008 8:13 am

Red Dog
Daphie Greene is a business woman, but given that she owes her appointment to the very same people who are engaged in these corrupt dealings, the million dollar quesiton is what will she do about it when she is confronted with all the facts behind these lousy deals?

When I refered to mitigation ratios for housing developments and aiirport expansions at 1 to 1 or 1 to 2 - what makes what OHV mitigaiton deals so rotton is that the OHVers are paying mitigation ratios of 1 to 8.5 to upwards of 1 to 27. OHV areas have to still preserve the soiils and even have to keep the land usable as wildlife habitat within the OHV use areas. OHV riding areas have to do soil conservation plans, and wildlife habitate mointoring and protection plans. So even though houseing developments and ariport expanision get to pave over aras completely, and landscape with non native plants, like mowed lawns, OHV use areas keep 95 percent plus of the natural habitat in place.

So why in the world would an OHV use area have to provide for a mitigation ratio that is 5 to 20 times higher than for an airport expansion or housing development? The answer is simple, the OHVers have been taken advantage of, played for fools, on OHV land deals by those in charge of the OHV program. I know this, if some guy worked for an airport or housing developer, and they come back to their boses or stockholders with deals on mitigation, like the OHVers have been getting, they would have been fired befor the day was out. The OHV community as a whole, and especially some of our most trusted leaders, should be ashamed, for letting this kind of stuff continue for so long! Just because it looks like the crooks are getting away with it, does not mean it is time to give up, and let corrupt dealings stand.

Now Daphie Greene was a Davis appointee too, and the Davis bunch backed her appointement to head the OHV program. I say give her a chance, but if she does not do something about the poor dealings that have gone on, and she lets unfair and unfavorable OHV policies keep being made, then she is not worthy of our continued trust.
Interesting thread, well it's been four years now, what do we all think.

The Pilot...

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Post by tomjeeps2 » Mon Mar 03, 2008 10:02 am

8)
Last edited by tomjeeps2 on Tue Mar 11, 2008 10:01 pm, edited 2 times in total.
The Country is ran by the few that show up.
They are lead by the even fewer that step up.

http://WWW.TEAMSTEALTH.ORG Noise issue information.
http://WWW.OHMVR.COM Total Off Road Recreation!

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Post by Woodglue » Mon Mar 03, 2008 2:47 pm

Tom,
Can you provide a weblink to source the above?
Thanks,
-Mike.
My Avatar is BLM's DRAMP Proposed OHV Access under Alt #3.
Purple = Closed
Green = Open
IS THIS WHAT YOU WANT?
More here

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Post by tomjeeps2 » Mon Mar 03, 2008 5:02 pm

8)
Last edited by tomjeeps2 on Tue Mar 11, 2008 10:02 pm, edited 1 time in total.
The Country is ran by the few that show up.
They are lead by the even fewer that step up.

http://WWW.TEAMSTEALTH.ORG Noise issue information.
http://WWW.OHMVR.COM Total Off Road Recreation!

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Post by Woodglue » Tue Mar 04, 2008 9:47 am

tomjeeps2 wrote: Sorry Mike it was from this thread page 1, found the time of this post interesting, as if echos much of what I heard over the years pushing to get the Fuel Tax study out.
Sorry about that Tom, I thought it was a formal opinion / editorial piece or somthing. Well, for that matter, I guess it was afterall. :lol:
My Avatar is BLM's DRAMP Proposed OHV Access under Alt #3.
Purple = Closed
Green = Open
IS THIS WHAT YOU WANT?
More here

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Post by tomjeeps2 » Tue Mar 04, 2008 11:49 pm

8)
Last edited by tomjeeps2 on Tue Mar 11, 2008 10:03 pm, edited 1 time in total.
The Country is ran by the few that show up.
They are lead by the even fewer that step up.

http://WWW.TEAMSTEALTH.ORG Noise issue information.
http://WWW.OHMVR.COM Total Off Road Recreation!

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Post by tomjeeps2 » Thu Mar 06, 2008 9:58 am

8)
Last edited by tomjeeps2 on Tue Mar 11, 2008 10:05 pm, edited 1 time in total.
The Country is ran by the few that show up.
They are lead by the even fewer that step up.

http://WWW.TEAMSTEALTH.ORG Noise issue information.
http://WWW.OHMVR.COM Total Off Road Recreation!

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Post by tomjeeps2 » Mon Mar 10, 2008 7:03 am

Governor Arnold Schwarzenegger
State Capitol Building
Sacramento, CA 95814

Dear Governor Schwarzenegger:

This letter is to request that the Department of Finance look into the Off-Highway Vehicle (OHV) Community’s concerns that OHV Trust Funds may be overextended, and the spending definition of what is OHV related stretched too far. Over the years the OHV Community was uninvolved in the State Parks Department ‘s use of OHV Trust Funds for operational expense, and on many capitol outlay items, and this may have been a big mistake on our part.

The amount of OHV Trust Funds for support of the Parks Department has grown from 12.2 million dollars, to a proposed 37.8 million, in just five years, a 210% increase. During the Wilson administration the increase over eight years was only about 20%. I request to be informed of details of all the expenses included in the 37.8 million dollars of OHV Trust funds proposed for use by Parks Department for operational support.

The proposed budget includes positions to immediately staff an OHV Park in Riverside, with toxic waste cleanup issues and other significant concerns. This proposed OHV Park will not likely be open within the next three years, if ever. Still even these staff increases alone do come close to explaining the steep OHV Trust Funds spending increases, so contracting expenses need also to be looked at carefully.

The OHV program is conducting a study of it’s main revenue source, gas tax revenues. It unsound to raise spending greatly when future revenues are uncertain. Also, the OHV program itself is set to legislatively sunset on January 1st, 2007. On top that, the OHV Trust Fund reserves have been wiped out due to recent unusually high spending levels.

Please investigate this matter in detail, and please give pause to these huge Parks Department support budget increases from the OHV Trust Fund. It is important that the Public OHV Community can again be confident that our tax dollars, and OHV Trust Funds, are really only for what they were intended for in a truly frugal manner. Please contact me for further information and I very much appreciate your help.



Yours truly,
Has this been addressed? Don't let me I'm nobody...TJ

916-327-5296 FAX attn: appointments. The Governor's office


Here's the link to send an email.

http://www.govmail.ca.gov/
The Country is ran by the few that show up.
They are lead by the even fewer that step up.

http://WWW.TEAMSTEALTH.ORG Noise issue information.
http://WWW.OHMVR.COM Total Off Road Recreation!

Tom Tammone

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Post by Sandcock » Mon Mar 10, 2008 7:40 am

The proposed budget includes positions to immediately staff an OHV Park in Riverside, with toxic waste cleanup issues and other significant concerns.
Who will pay for the toxic waste cleanup :?:
The real egalitarians are not the people who want to redistribute wealth to the poor, but those who want to extend to the poor the ability to create their own wealth, to lift themselves up, instead of trying to tear others down. Earning respect, including self-respect, is better than being a parasite. Thomas Sowell

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Post by tomjeeps2 » Mon Mar 10, 2008 8:41 am

I don't know but I will say this, if we were pursuing a proper mitigation ratio, the odds would be greatly reduced of even having this problem...TJ
The Country is ran by the few that show up.
They are lead by the even fewer that step up.

http://WWW.TEAMSTEALTH.ORG Noise issue information.
http://WWW.OHMVR.COM Total Off Road Recreation!

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Post by DRAGON PILOT » Mon Mar 10, 2008 7:50 pm

TJ, hope you're having someone start your car in the morning, there could be a reason why we haven't heard from Red Dog in a wile.


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Post by tomjeeps2 » Mon Mar 10, 2008 10:38 pm

I understand people that work for the CBD have no problem sleeping at night, what an upside down world we live in, if I quit it will be due to mass apathy, not intimidation...TJ
The Country is ran by the few that show up.
They are lead by the even fewer that step up.

http://WWW.TEAMSTEALTH.ORG Noise issue information.
http://WWW.OHMVR.COM Total Off Road Recreation!

Tom Tammone

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Post by Winston Cup » Tue Mar 11, 2008 12:15 am

tomjeeps2 wrote:
Governor Arnold Schwarzenegger
State Capitol Building
Sacramento, CA 95814

Dear Governor Schwarzenegger:

This letter is to request that the Department of Finance look into the Off-Highway Vehicle (OHV) Community’s concerns that OHV Trust Funds may be overextended, and the spending definition of what is OHV related stretched too far. Over the years the OHV Community was uninvolved in the State Parks Department ‘s use of OHV Trust Funds for operational expense, and on many capitol outlay items, and this may have been a big mistake on our part.

The amount of OHV Trust Funds for support of the Parks Department has grown from 12.2 million dollars, to a proposed 37.8 million, in just five years, a 210% increase. During the Wilson administration the increase over eight years was only about 20%. I request to be informed of details of all the expenses included in the 37.8 million dollars of OHV Trust funds proposed for use by Parks Department for operational support.

The proposed budget includes positions to immediately staff an OHV Park in Riverside, with toxic waste cleanup issues and other significant concerns. This proposed OHV Park will not likely be open within the next three years, if ever. Still even these staff increases alone do come close to explaining the steep OHV Trust Funds spending increases, so contracting expenses need also to be looked at carefully.

The OHV program is conducting a study of it’s main revenue source, gas tax revenues. It unsound to raise spending greatly when future revenues are uncertain. Also, the OHV program itself is set to legislatively sunset on January 1st, 2007. On top that, the OHV Trust Fund reserves have been wiped out due to recent unusually high spending levels.

Please investigate this matter in detail, and please give pause to these huge Parks Department support budget increases from the OHV Trust Fund. It is important that the Public OHV Community can again be confident that our tax dollars, and OHV Trust Funds, are really only for what they were intended for in a truly frugal manner. Please contact me for further information and I very much appreciate your help.



Yours truly,
Has this been addressed? Don't let me I'm nobody...TJ

916-327-5296 FAX attn: appointments. The Governor's office


Here's the link to send an email.

http://www.govmail.ca.gov/
Tom, I have a hard enough time following you on these deals, and I wrote most of what's in this forum, so I can't begin to imagine how someone with limited experience or knowledge of this program could even attempt to make heads or tails of what exactly your trying to relate or do here. A lot of what your pulling up here is old news. What exactly are you trying to get across or do here and please explain this letter to the governor you've pulled out here? What exactly are you getting at?

I'm sorry bud, but trying to follow your posts is a lot like getting directions from someone with a real bad cell phone connection.
Guy Chrest

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Post by tomjeeps2 » Tue Mar 11, 2008 9:13 am

I thought the intent was to take an objective look, at where we are now after all this time, also I find comments about me not being objective rather humorous. The intent (I believed) was to spur thought, me just posting dry facts wont accomplish that goal, if the demand for information can somehow be redirected to Division we wouldn't have a problem...TJ
The Country is ran by the few that show up.
They are lead by the even fewer that step up.

http://WWW.TEAMSTEALTH.ORG Noise issue information.
http://WWW.OHMVR.COM Total Off Road Recreation!

Tom Tammone

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Post by A Family of 4 » Tue Mar 11, 2008 9:19 am

tomjeeps2 wrote:
Governor Arnold Schwarzenegger
State Capitol Building
Sacramento, CA 95814

Dear Governor Schwarzenegger:

This letter is to request that the Department of Finance look into the Off-Highway Vehicle (OHV) Community’s concerns that OHV Trust Funds may be overextended, and the spending definition of what is OHV related stretched too far. Over the years the OHV Community was uninvolved in the State Parks Department ‘s use of OHV Trust Funds for operational expense, and on many capitol outlay items, and this may have been a big mistake on our part.

The amount of OHV Trust Funds for support of the Parks Department has grown from 12.2 million dollars, to a proposed 37.8 million, in just five years, a 210% increase. During the Wilson administration the increase over eight years was only about 20%. I request to be informed of details of all the expenses included in the 37.8 million dollars of OHV Trust funds proposed for use by Parks Department for operational support.

The proposed budget includes positions to immediately staff an OHV Park in Riverside, with toxic waste cleanup issues and other significant concerns. This proposed OHV Park will not likely be open within the next three years, if ever. Still even these staff increases alone do come close to explaining the steep OHV Trust Funds spending increases, so contracting expenses need also to be looked at carefully.

The OHV program is conducting a study of it’s main revenue source, gas tax revenues. It unsound to raise spending greatly when future revenues are uncertain. Also, the OHV program itself is set to legislatively sunset on January 1st, 2007. On top that, the OHV Trust Fund reserves have been wiped out due to recent unusually high spending levels.

Please investigate this matter in detail, and please give pause to these huge Parks Department support budget increases from the OHV Trust Fund. It is important that the Public OHV Community can again be confident that our tax dollars, and OHV Trust Funds, are really only for what they were intended for in a truly frugal manner. Please contact me for further information and I very much appreciate your help.



Yours truly,
Has this been addressed? Don't let me I'm nobody...TJ

916-327-5296 FAX attn: appointments. The Governor's office


Here's the link to send an email.

http://www.govmail.ca.gov/

I am so confused.....and state legislation and the OHMVR Division is 'my' thing.

Who wrote that letter? When was it dated? And why?
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Post by tomjeeps2 » Tue Mar 11, 2008 10:49 am

Vicky this goes back a long way, I will say this you did do a good job on SB742, all things considering...TJ
The Country is ran by the few that show up.
They are lead by the even fewer that step up.

http://WWW.TEAMSTEALTH.ORG Noise issue information.
http://WWW.OHMVR.COM Total Off Road Recreation!

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Post by A Family of 4 » Tue Mar 11, 2008 10:53 am

Thank you Tom



About this letter.....are you submitting it now? Or is it an old topic? It seems outdated to me....but like I said, I'm confused.
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Post by tomjeeps2 » Tue Mar 11, 2008 1:51 pm

8)
Last edited by tomjeeps2 on Tue Mar 11, 2008 4:49 pm, edited 1 time in total.
The Country is ran by the few that show up.
They are lead by the even fewer that step up.

http://WWW.TEAMSTEALTH.ORG Noise issue information.
http://WWW.OHMVR.COM Total Off Road Recreation!

Tom Tammone

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Post by Brewster » Tue Mar 11, 2008 2:07 pm

The report will go to more than just the governor:

5090.24.
(h) Prepare and submit a program report to the Governor, the
Assembly Water, Parks, and Wildlife Committee, the Senate Committee
on Natural Resources and Water, and the Committee on Appropriations
of each house on or before January 1, 2011, and every three years
thereafter. The report shall be adopted by the commission after
discussing the contents during two or more public meetings. The
report shall address the status of the program and off-highway motor
vehicle recreation, including all of the following:

Ride on
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Post by tomjeeps2 » Tue Mar 11, 2008 2:59 pm

8)
Last edited by tomjeeps2 on Tue Mar 11, 2008 4:49 pm, edited 1 time in total.
The Country is ran by the few that show up.
They are lead by the even fewer that step up.

http://WWW.TEAMSTEALTH.ORG Noise issue information.
http://WWW.OHMVR.COM Total Off Road Recreation!

Tom Tammone

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Post by Winston Cup » Tue Mar 11, 2008 3:14 pm

tomjeeps2 wrote:My big concern now is we're (me included) are in an awkward position, I have to advocate Division working to get Commissioners appointed, in the interest of getting the money out ASAP. Yes you heard even I hold my nose but I'm franticly rethinking this position, under SB742 the Commission is to submit reports to the Governors office, is this not a conflict of interest?...TJ :?
Tom, I'm going to ask you to try and elaborate your thoughts a little better while posting here. I'd like you in the future to fully "think out" what your trying to relay to people before you post. You have a habit of grabbing bits and pieces of various items that interest you, running them through a blender and then tossing them into a post with very little explanation as to what your trying to get across. At times your posts appear to be down right incoherent. The big problem I have with that, is that it takes what is already a very confusing subject and makes it even worse, and that turns people off from even trying to get up to speed and hopefully getting involved, which I believe is the ultimate goal both you and I share. I have no doubt your heart is in the right place on this deal, and that your passionate about it. That's pretty clear to me. I just think your getting a little bit ahead of your keyboard.

When I get time later I'm going to go through and tidy up this thread a bit, and a maybe a few others in this forum, because I feel that your some of your posts are a bit too fragmented and thereby making it very difficult for someone to follow the information contained within this forum.

Please put a bit more thought into what your trying to elaborate before you post. A little more explanation would help. If you have another direction you would like to go with some part of this topic or any other, then maybe starting a new thread might also be best.

Thanks Tom
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Post by tomjeeps2 » Tue Mar 11, 2008 5:33 pm

Winston Cup wrote:Guys I'm not sure where you should put it to get more people to pay attention. I know all this stuff is a long read and many just plain don't want to deal with it. I don't blame them really, it's confusing, and it's like reading from the middle of a book, but I'm doing the best I can to lay it all out as easy to understand as possible and as factual as possible. A ton of work has and is going into this deal. A lot of digging is still going on. Whether people pay attention to it or not is up to them. But the information is here if they want to find it. There will be more to come.

We will not fix this deal by simply changing the make up of the commission, the problems we've found run much much deeper, and at this point changing the makeup of the commission isn't even an option anyway. Not yet at least.

Kim Kammer put together this sample letter and we're encouraging people to send some variation of it to the governor. If we can flood his office with letters such as this, we can get his attention on this matter and some other matters with this OHMVR program as well. People sending in these letters will back up what we are doing on the legislative end of things. So we need everyones help here.
Governor Arnold Schwarzenegger
State Capitol Building
Sacramento, CA 95814

Dear Governor Schwarzenegger:

This letter is to request that the Department of Finance look into the Off-Highway Vehicle (OHV) Community’s concerns that OHV Trust Funds may be overextended, and the spending definition of what is OHV related stretched too far. Over the years the OHV Community was uninvolved in the State Parks Department ‘s use of OHV Trust Funds for operational expense, and on many capitol outlay items, and this may have been a big mistake on our part.

The amount of OHV Trust Funds for support of the Parks Department has grown from 12.2 million dollars, to a proposed 37.8 million, in just five years, a 210% increase. During the Wilson administration the increase over eight years was only about 20%. I request to be informed of details of all the expenses included in the 37.8 million dollars of OHV Trust funds proposed for use by Parks Department for operational support.

The proposed budget includes positions to immediately staff an OHV Park in Riverside, with toxic waste cleanup issues and other significant concerns. This proposed OHV Park will not likely be open within the next three years, if ever. Still even these staff increases alone do come close to explaining the steep OHV Trust Funds spending increases, so contracting expenses need also to be looked at carefully.

The OHV program is conducting a study of it’s main revenue source, gas tax revenues. It unsound to raise spending greatly when future revenues are uncertain. Also, the OHV program itself is set to legislatively sunset on January 1st, 2007. On top that, the OHV Trust Fund reserves have been wiped out due to recent unusually high spending levels.

Please investigate this matter in detail, and please give pause to these huge Parks Department support budget increases from the OHV Trust Fund. It is important that the Public OHV Community can again be confident that our tax dollars, and OHV Trust Funds, are really only for what they were intended for in a truly frugal manner. Please contact me for further information and I very much appreciate your help.



Yours truly,
To get to Kims site, click here Image

Bob this letter of Kims may be something you want to "Sticky" as another deal in it's self to get more attention to it so we can get some letters out.
OK I'll make this as easy as I can, four years later would you say your concerns about Division expenses have been addressed???...TJ
The Country is ran by the few that show up.
They are lead by the even fewer that step up.

http://WWW.TEAMSTEALTH.ORG Noise issue information.
http://WWW.OHMVR.COM Total Off Road Recreation!

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Thwarting the Delphi Technique

Post by tomjeeps2 » Wed Jul 09, 2008 10:22 am

How to stand your ground in public meetings II - Thwarting the Delphi Technique

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

LET'S STOP BEING MANIPULATED!
THE DELPHI TECHNIQUE
By: Albert V. Burns

More and more, we are seeing citizens being invited to "participate" in various forms of meetings, councils, or boards to "help determine" public policy in one field or another. They are supposedly being included to get "input" from the public to help officials make final decisions on taxes, education, community growth or whatever the particular subject matter might be. Sounds great, doesn't it? Unfortunately, surface appearances are often deceiving.
You, Mr. or Mrs. Citizen, decide to take part in one of these meetings. Generally, you will find that there is already someone designated to lead or "facilitate" the meeting. Supposedly the job of the facilitator is to be a neutral, non-directing helper to see that the meeting flows smoothly. Actually, he or she is there for exactly the opposite reason: to see that the conclusions reached during the meeting are in accord with a plan already decided upon by those who called the meeting.

The process used to "facilitate" the meeting is called the Delphi Technique. This Delphi Technique was developed by the RAND Corporation for the U.S. Department of Defense back in the 1950s. It was originally intended for use as a psychological weapon during the cold war. However, it was soon recognized that the steps of Delphi could be very valuable in manipulating ANY meeting toward a pre-determined end.

How does the process take place? The techniques are well developed and well defined. First, the person who will be leading the meeting, the facilitator or Change Agent must be a likeable person with whom those participating in the meeting can agree or sympathize with. It is, therefore, the job of the facilitator to find a way to cause a split in the audience, to establish one or a few of the people as "bad guys" while the facilitator is perceived as the "good guy." Facilitators are trained to recognize potential opponents and how to make such people appear aggressive, foolish, extremist, etc. Once this is done, the facilitator establishes himself or herself as the "friend" of the rest of the audience. The stage is now set for the rest of the agenda to take place.

At this point, the audience is generally broken up into "discussion groups" of seven or eight people each. Each of these groups is to be led by a subordinate facilitator. Within each group, discussion takes place of issues, already decided upon by the leadership of the meeting. Here, too, the facilitator manipulates the discussion in the desired direction, isolating and demeaning opposing viewpoints. Generally, participants are asked to write down their ideas and disagreements with the papers to be turned in and "compiled" for general discussion after the general meeting is re-convened.

THIS is the weak link in the chain which you are not supposed to recognize. WHO compiles the various notes into the final agenda for discussion? AHHHH! Well, it is those who are running the meeting. How do you know that the ideas on YOUR notes were included in the final result. You DON'T! You may realize that your idea was NOT included and come to the conclusion that you were probably in the minority. Recognize that every OTHER citizen member of this meeting has written his or her likes or dislikes on a similar sheet of paper and they, too, have no idea whether THEIR ideas were "compiled" into the final result! You don't even know if ANYONE'S ideas are part of the final "conclusions" presented to the re-assembled group as the "consensus" of public opinion. Rarely, does anyone challenge the process since each concludes that he or she was in the minority and different from all the others. So, now, those who organized the meeting in the first place are able to tell the participants AND THE REST OF THE COMMUNITY that the conclusions, reached at the meeting, are the result of public participation. Actually, the desired conclusions had been established, in the back room, long before the meeting ever took place. There are variations in the technique to fit special situations but, in general, the procedure outlined above takes place.

The natural question to ask here is: If the outcome was preordained BEFORE the meeting took place, WHY have the meeting? Herein lies the genius of this Delphi Technique. It is imperative that the general public believe that this program is THEIRS! They thought it up! They took part in its development! Their input was recognized! If people believe that the program is theirs, they will support it. If they get the slightest hint that the program is being imposed upon them, they will resist.

This VERY effective technique is being used, over and over and over, to change our form of government from the representative republic, intended by the Founding Fathers, into a "participatory democracy." Now, citizens chosen at large, are manipulated into accepting preset outcomes while they believe that the input they provided produced the outcomes which are now THEIRS! The reality is that the final outcome was already determined long before any public meetings took place, determined by individuals unknown to the public. Can you say "Conspiracy?"

These "Change Agents" or "Facilitators" CAN be beaten! They may be beaten using their own methods against them. Because it is SO important, I will repeat the suggestions I gave in the last previous column.

ONE: Never, NEVER lose your temper! Lose your temper and lose the battle, it is that simple! Smile, if it kills you to do so. Be courteous at all times. Speak in a normal tone of voice.

TWO: Stay focused! Always write your question or statement down in advance to help you remember the exact manner in which your question or statement was made. These agents are trained to twist things to make anyone not acceding to THEIR agenda look silly or aggressive. Smile, wait till the change agent gets done speaking and then bring them back to your question. If they distort what you said, simply remind those in the group that what he or she is saying is NOT what you asked or said and then repeat, verbatim, from your notes the original objection.

THREE: Be persistent! Wait through any harangues and then repeat the original question. (Go back and re-read the previous column.)

FOUR: (I wish to thank a reader of the previous column for some EXCELLENT suggestions.) DON'T go alone! Get as many friends or relatives who think as you do, to go along with you to the meeting. Have each person "armed" with questions or statements which all generally support your central viewpoint. DON'T sit together as a group! Spread out through the audience so that your group does not seem to be a group.

When the facilitator or change agent avoids answering YOUR question and insists that he must move on so everyone may have a chance to speak, your own agents in the audience can then ask questions, worded differently, but still with the same meaning as yours. They can bring the discussion back to your original point. They could even point out, in a friendly manner, that the agent did NOT really answer your question. The more the agent avoids your question, and the more your friends bring that to the attention of the group, the more the audience will shift in your favor.

To quote my informant: "Turn the technique back on them and isolate the change agent as the kook. I've done it and seen steam come out of the ears of those power brokers in the wings who are trying to shove something down the citizen's throats. And it's so much fun to watch the moderator squirm and lose his cool, all while trying to keep a smile on his face."

Now that you understand how meetings are manipulated, let's show them up for the charlatans which they are.

Post from the Pirate board, brings us back a few years...TJ
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Re: The Life of an OHV "Green Sticker" Dollar

Post by crash » Wed Jul 09, 2008 10:34 am

I was waiting for some eco-capitalist quotes to be used as exemplaries. Fits pretty well with how they operate.

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Re: The Life of an OHV "Green Sticker" Dollar

Post by tomjeeps2 » Wed Jul 09, 2008 12:46 pm

By no means a new issue, especially on this thread but what peaked my interest was it actually did suggest a solution, good or bad...TJ
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Re: The Life of an OHV "Green Sticker" Dollar

Post by tomjeeps2 » Sat Aug 30, 2008 8:51 pm

http://www.corva.org/ 2008/2009 Proposed budget


8/30/2008
See how your OHV registration money gets divided up.
http://www.corva.org/Grants/2008/OHV_REG_spending.htm
The Country is ran by the few that show up.
They are lead by the even fewer that step up.

http://WWW.TEAMSTEALTH.ORG Noise issue information.
http://WWW.OHMVR.COM Total Off Road Recreation!

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