My worthless DAM opinion,

Issues relating to the California Off Highway Motor Vehicle Recreation / Green Sticker Fund

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My worthless DAM opinion,

Post by tomjeeps2 »

My worthless DAM opinion,

The OHMVR program has lost all focus on what matters, $326,874 is all that will be allocated for trial maintenance this year if this stands, this is less than 2% of the of the money for grants and under 1% of the total budget. The audit scorns Spitler and ED for doing there own spreed sheets in 2004, and there higher awards under NON CESA (O&M) and restoration. My word back then was hey we appreciated the effort but it was extremely disruptive, there needed to be more clarity on the Consent calender and Division was not getting these out within the ten day notice time. Divisions answer to this appears to be just not to include spread sheets, in the mailed out meeting notice letters and just check the "fluid" web site.

OK look at what we have now, $14,000,000 backed up in restoration and less than 2% going to trial maintenance, perhaps this audit was counterproductive. The good news is they stated on record the $2,000,000 up from $800,000 recommend by Staff for the route inventory was the final payment, if you read the messed up MOI this is very good news. Personally I thing we could hold off one more year without maintenance, next year we wont have the route inventory dragging us down, and the fuel tax study could wipe out the restoration back up.

ED's response to the "possibly tinted" Red Dog remark is if I did sell my sole I would still be there, sorry ED but my view on this is you started to but it was too Little too late. Daphne denies this but in late 2005 when I was on her "special" list, I spent many hours trying to find some middle ground with her , you and this system. The Truth was she was just using me to influence ED, as soon as the Governor Dumped ED she Dumped me, perhaps taking advise from another women in my life and "entertaining my needs"?

My idea was we needed both a good system, and a Commission that had it's eye on the bucks, now we have nether the Commission is a joke the 4-3 split remains and the system just ties our hands. ED and Chavez both did not gain reappointment, they both voted against the system that failed to ever gain Commission approval. These where both Governors appointments that also appointed and obviously support whatever Daphne wants, at the last meeting she was all ready trying to flex this leverage with Mark, she has no business trying to influence Commissioners but in the case of Governors appointees she clearly does.

Also Like I said before don't be fooled be any "staged" friction between Spitler and Daphne, they are both the real brains behind this whole mess, Brissenden in My opinion was voted chair just to make him harder to replace, if you attend these meetings Sptiler is clearly still in control. Spitler Voted for the system and now the insiders tell me because of the Daphne influenced Commission make up, we are now locked into her and this system, that was really mandated by nothing. Thomas is the worst as far as he believes but he's harmless, Brissenden is really not a bad guy but is under Spitlers dome, Anderson is actually emerging as a good middle ground candidate for Chair. Daphne only had one real assignment when she was appointed, come up with some regs which are a shift on the fly joke and far from done, she took off on her own with this system that know one wanted, engaged in unbelievable collusion to lock us into it.

Bottom line is ED was right, we just need a real Commission, Paul J. Spitler and Daphne Coffin Greene should ether resign or be removed. Anderson should be made Chair, and the Division Chief could take over the Deputy Directors Appointment he's extremely familiar with the duties, he goes with Daphne almost everywhere from what I have been told. The Commission mess can wait as far as appointments but Spitler must go now period...TJ :evil:


john.kabateck@gov.ca.gov

"arnold" governor@governor.ca.gov

ohvinfo@parks.ca.gov

"speaker nunez" assemblymember.nunez@assembly.ca.gov

Senator.Prat@sen.ca.gov

Mary.Delaney@Resources.Ca.Gov
The Country is ran by the few that show up.
They are lead by the even fewer that step up.

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Post by tomjeeps2 »

I nominate the Honorable Mark McMillin, for the understatement of the year award "I'm confused" a remark make when abstaining from a vote.

???????? Translation in English please :roll:
It would take more years than I have left on this Earth, the answer is all around you we got ourselves too wrapped up in legal rope. They keep talking about fixing problems caused by ab 2666 or whatever, by more legislation's that just causes more problems, how about just lining out the bad legislating?
Everything we do just makes it worse, after so much of these you just have to ask why pick it out one corn nut at a time, when you can just flush the toilet? http://quietbike.org/CatFlushMovie.wmv Sometimes I think these animals are smarter than we are!!

All I can say for sure is:

(1) DO join ASA & CORVA http://www.corva.org/join.html
http://www.americansandassociation.org/register.php

(2) DO donate to ASA & CORVA http://www.corva.org/donations.html
http://www.americansandassociation.org/ ... p?cat=252/

(3) DO attend the March 19th lobby day http://www.clorv.org/

(4) DO attend the OHMVR Commission meetings http://ohv.parks.ca.gov/

(5) Don't EVER let them tell you not to state your Worthless DAM opinion...TJ

john.kabateck@gov.ca.gov

"arnold" governor@governor.ca.gov

ohvinfo@parks.ca.gov

"speaker nunez" assemblymember.nunez@assembly.ca.gov

Senator.Prat@sen.ca.gov

Mary.Delaney@Resources.Ca.Gov
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Post by tomjeeps2 »

http://ohv.parks.ca.gov/default.asp?page_id=1164

NOTICE – UPCOMING OPPORTUNITY FOR PUBLIC REVIEW OF REVISIONS TO REGULATIONS

Be on the lookout for the revised regulations on this website!

When: Tuesday, February 13, 2007

What: The OHMVR Division will post on this website the revised proposed permanent Regulations to be adopted for the Grants and Cooperative Agreements Program for applications submitted after January 1, 2007.

Purpose: Opportunity for Public Comment

Background: In April 2006, permanent regulations were proposed for the Grants and Cooperative Agreements Program. Based on public comments received and experience with the program during the 2006/2007 grants cycle, the regulations as proposed in April have been revised, reorganized, and clarified.

Public Comment: The revised proposed permanent regulations that will be posted on Tuesday will be available for a final fifteen (15) day public review and comment period before they are finalized and submitted for adoption.
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Post by tomjeeps2 »

Senator Perata's previous email started to bounce back at me, this is the one on his web site so try this, if you have anything to say about Paul Spitler...TJ

Senator.Perata@sen.ca.gov <Senator.Perata@sen.ca.gov>
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http://WWW.OHMVR.COM Total Off Road Recreation!

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Post by tomjeeps2 »

OK, if you want I will be a Little more specific, such as the time I and many others wasted a trip in Nov 2005, just to have the meeting adjourned over meeting notice issues, these were nothing along side of other past issues that have been ignored by Staff and the Commission. A grant for Restoration got tossed by Division, for a NON Profit that Spitler was a Consultant for and this grant was in the millions, also yes his wife was having a kid I was told. Point is this meeting notice stuff only matters when it's an inconvenience for the Chair and/or the Deputy Director. Also where are the latest meeting transcripts, go read what the public had to say at the last meeting, it don't really matter to me I have the high points on my own tapes.

Now that I have an apparent working email address for Senator Perata I'm sending this, also as for as Commissioner Paul Spitler's Wife having a kid, it's a very legitimate reason to miss or even reschedule a meeting. But for him to reach for such a lame excuse is unconscionable, not just my time but the time wasted for all and the wasted Government resources at all leaves is inexcusable. I have also attached a copy of this meetings transcript.

Commissioner Paul J Spitler should ether resign or be removed...TJ

Senator.Perata@sen.ca.gov Senator Perata

http://www.district37ama.org/forums/att ... 1171662823
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Post by tomjeeps2 »

http://www.stormpay.com/stormpay/user/u ... Y9bCZjPTEz

Hey why dose everything I say seam to happen, I saw one of the running around yesterday, at the Wildomar OHV area on the Cleveland National Forest.

We want our share of the Electric Utility tax!!! Now for the real kicker, the Quietest most Eco friendly bike know-en to man may not be legal, go figure!!! Sometimes these Laws just make me nuts!!!!

Ladies and Gentleman, start your Toilets...TJ
:wink:

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Post by tomjeeps2 »

Just a reminder, the comment period for the permanent regs ends Feb 28Th...TJ

--------------------------------------------------------------------------

NOTICE OF ADDITIONAL 15-DAY COMMENT PERIOD
ON THE PROPOSED
OFF-HIGHWAY MOTOR VEHICLE RECREATION DIVISION
REGULATIONS
The Off-Highway Motor Vehicle Recreation (OHMVR) Division has reviewed the
comments on the proposed OHMVR Grants and Cooperative Agreements
Program Regulations received during the written comment period (April 7 through
June 2, 2006) and at the public hearings held on May 31, 2006 and June 2, 2006
in Sacramento and Ontario, respectively.
The Division agrees with a number of the comments that recommend revisions to
the proposed regulations text and The Off-Highway Motor Vehicle Recreation
Division Manual for Grants and Cooperative Agreements (Grants Program
Manual), which is incorporated by reference. These revisions are included in the
Regulations posted below.
In addition, during the 2006/2007 funding cycle, the Division determined there
were aspects of the OHMVR Grants and Cooperative Agreements Program,
including the text of the regulations and the Grants Program Manual, which
needed further attention in the process of permanently adopting the regulations.
The Division is proposing additional revisions included in the Regulations posted
below.
In accordance with Section 11346.8(c) of the Administrative Procedure Act, the
revised regulations are being made available to the public for comment for 15
days, beginning on February 14 and expiring on February 28, 2007.
Due to the revisions, and to facilitate public review, the Division has provided a
strike-out version of the text of the regulations proposed in April, 2006. For the
ease of reading, the Division is presenting a clean copy of the entire revised text
of the proposed regulations, including the Grants Program Manual for review and
comment.
Any interested person, or his or her authorized representative, may submit
written comments on the regulations to the Division.
The written comment period ends at 5:00 p.m. on Wednesday, February 28,
2007. The Division shall consider only written comments received at the
Division’s office and must receive those comments by that time. All written
comments shall be submitted to the following address:
California Department of Parks and Recreation
Off-Highway Motor Vehicle Recreation Division
1725 23
rd Street, Suite 200
Sacramento, California 95816-7100
Written comments that are not more than 10 pages will be accepted by the
Division via facsimile at (916) 324-1610. A fax transmission must be completed
by the deadline given.
Written comments may also be delivered electronically to John Pelonio Grant
Administrator, at: 916-324-4442 or jpelonio@ parks.ca.gov, or Barbara
Greenwood, Grant Administrator, at 916-324-4442 or
bgreenwood@parks.ca.gov.


Note:
All comments received during the first comment period and public
hearings, including those not included in the revisions, as well as comments
received during this 15-day comment period, will be included in the Final
Statement of Reasons with the Department’s responses. The Final Statement of
Reasons will be made available on the Division website at the time of the
submission of the Permanent Regulations to the Office of Administrative Law.
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Post by Brewster »

Here's a link to all of the information:

http://www.ohv.parks.ca.gov/default.asp?page_id=1164

These are proposed changes to the OHV Grants scoring and funding process. There are some MAJOR changes in the proposal. It is looking more like an OHV program than an environmental/OHV program! One of the proposed changes that I'm very happy with is the $500,000 cap on a project and $2,000,000 cap from any one agency. The 2006-2007 grant requests had some very excessive money requests, up to $5,655,000 for a single request.

PLEASE TAKE THE TIME TO READ AND SUBMIT COMMENTS!!!!

keep informed and active

Ride on
Brewster
CERA...assistant LAO

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Post by tomjeeps2 »

Funding Caps


Applicants may apply for up to $500,000 per project type, and as much as $2,000,000
per applicant.
It says "applicant" not "agency" this is good because it could be the antidote, to the down side of ab2520 which as it would encourage agency's to develop relations with 501 c3's, as separate applicants that apply on the agency's behalf. However the one size fits all may have some draw backs, like everyone will just apply for the maximum, but it's better that everyone applying for $18 million, the way it is now it could happen.


WE should all know for sure tens days in advance, what will and will not be on the consent calendar, anyone should be able to pull anything off for any reason. However within reason meaning thirty days written notice, also it should be public record who pulled anything off, be it the public, a Commissioner, an applicant or even a division Staff member or State official.


Division needs to show some accountability for how their scoring the grants, sometimes I wounder if there even reading them at all, if they don't have the man power to do it right they should ask the public for help. This would save a lot of time and could lead to more grants getting left on consent, along with it being on record who pulled it off, some commissioners play games with it fine they wont do it in anonymity.


Appeals process for the applicants, the year before 45 grants got deemed incomplete, then it got reduced to 39, this year they didn't even release a number. Also it was stated on record at the last meeting that some applicants where not happy, so I do believe it is a problem that should be addressed in the regs.


Can't find Any linkage in the regs as to how the publics concerns are being addressed, this is during what was the open house process, now they don't even have those. Now they just post them on the Internet, theres a thirty day comment period but what happens with the comments? Do the applicants address them or do they just put them in an attachment, and just leave it for later on. Seams as it gets more complicated the publics roll is always the first to go, again if we don't have a functioning Commission it's all just a waste, whatever happens needs to be bought into the open.


All in all nothing is going to be perfect, as the Marines say the worst plan given 100% effort, has a better chance of success that the best plan given no effort. Any course of action is better than one that never gets off the drawing board, Germany still didn't learn after World War Two, there are thinkers and there are doer's, after they lost we where amazed with all they thought about, but in the end what GOOD DID IT DO?


Now this program is kind of like the fight over Anna's dead body, it's raptly decomposing and the longer they fight, the less there will be to fight over.
The biggest problem we have is the program is unstable, many applicants are crying Wolf about all their problem making absurd claims, as to the status of their Commission awards, I didn't call them on it because the programs so unstable the awards are worthless.


Bottom line is right or wrong, we need to pick a spot and stay there, then the Agency's will figure out what they need to do, the longer we think about it, the worse it will be...TJ
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Post by tomjeeps2 »

"Rich"
Do I understand this correctly? This link shows the total grants
distributed out of Green Sticker funds. The money we are forced to
pay to register an Off Highway Vehicle?

I did a little math and see that out of the $18 million available a
whopping $326,874 went to trail maintenance. That's 1.8% OBSCENE!!
Where else did the money go?

Restoration (taking back trails?) 42%
Law Enforcement 22%
Planning (Gov't employees?) 16.3%
Conservation 6%
Research 4%
FOM (WHAT is that???) 4%
Equipment (mostly for LE) 2.4%
Trail Maintenance 1.8%
Education 1.1%
Development 1%

Interesting, disheartening and sickening all in one!

Information is the oxygen of the modern age. It seeps through the
walls topped by barbed wire, it wafts across the electrified borders.

Government's view of the economy could be summed up in a few short
phrases: If it moves, tax it. If it keeps moving, regulate it. And if
it stops moving, subsidize it.

Government always finds a need for whatever money it gets.

Freedom is never more than one generation away from extinction. We
didn't pass it to our children in the bloodstream. It must be fought
for, protected, and handed on for them to do the same.



Interesting quote from one of our local OHV Volunteers, he apparently took some time crunching the numbers which at a glance look pretty close, and mighty ugly...TJ :evil:
The Country is ran by the few that show up.
They are lead by the even fewer that step up.

http://WWW.TEAMSTEALTH.ORG Noise issue information.
http://WWW.OHMVR.COM Total Off Road Recreation!

Tom Tammone

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Post by tomjeeps2 »

Overview of sb742 and the funding crisis, my observations of comments and opinion.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Text of the Steinberg bill available at:

http://www.leginfo.ca.gov/pub/07-08/bil ... oduced.pdf

Also see comments on the Dual Sport page

The bill will recast allocation schedule for the OHV Trust Fund. The fund will be made up of:
-Fuel tax revenue
-OHV fees
- SVRA fees ($10/vehicle)
- the baseline amout to be transferred will be based on amount from 2006-2007

(Page 2, para 3.)
Transfer of funds from the Fuel Account will be to the Trust Fund and will not be allocated separately to CESA and the Fund
The OHV fees were previously : service fee - $7 special fee- $8
Fees will now be: service fee - $7 special fee -$67

*Also there will be a SALES FEE yet to be determined on all OHV's

(Page 3)

No more red sticker, all must be green sticker
( Page 3, line 6 )
You will have to have in your possession written permission from the owner when riding on private property
(Page 4 line 1)
Funds from the C&E account will be used to reimburse the FWS for the route inventory costs
(Page 3, line 6)


funds may be used for both motorized and non-motorized recreation accessed off highway
(Page 7 line 6, and other places)

Commission makeup:
1. OHV interests
2. bio/soils science
3. rural landowners
4. LE
5. envorronmentalist
6. non-motorized recreation

(Page 7 line 32)
Federal agencies receiving grants must match $ for $
(Page 9, line 25)

Minimums are to be established for resto, cons, LE, education to maintain flexibility
(Page 11, line 16) -
Formula for distribution is yet to be determined
(Page 13 line 13)

I hope I got this right, please read it for yourselves as well.

Know where your money is going. Do you like this bill? I don't. They want to have us fund non motorized recreation with motorized funds for a start.
I don't think so!


Brew,
My guess is that now that the results of the fuel tax survey are out, the environmental groups are worried that they won't have as much of the OHV fund money for their pet projects. This bill would protect those pet projects.

The only part of this that I see as positive is "Funds from the C&E account will be used to reimburse the FWS for the route inventory costs". For the last few years, the money has come from the non-CESA account. That account is where actual benifits to the OHV opportunity are funded from. The C&E account is for environmental and law enforcement projects.

What the author of the bill may not realize, is that the route inventory project is about finished. They have already received $8,000,000 of OUR funds to finance the project. The real pisser is that the route inventory project is a federally mandated project. The USFS should be going to Washington DC. for funding, not Sacramento.


Brew
The real pisser is that the route inventory project is a federally mandated project. The USFS should be going to Washington DC. for funding, not Sacramento.


I couldn't agree more, I gave them an ear full at the last meeting I just wonder if were ever going to see the transcripts, if you go to a FS trial designation meeting you better be ready to get real pissed off. Now that this project has drained the NON CESA funds, the FS is claiming they need to close all the trails they can't afford to maintain, can you say black hole!!!

As long as the C&E spending requirements are less than legitimate need, I personally don't care what the number is, realistically I don't see the need for more than about 3 million spent on restoration. This number also includes all those planning projects under NON CESA that are really Restoration projects, this is what their trying to turn the Route Designation process into, which was paid for with NON CESA funds...



Brew,
Here's some information from the bio of the senator who submitted the bill;

"Darrell Steinberg was elected on November 7, 2006 to the California State Senate, representing the 6th District, which includes the capital city of Sacramento, parts of Elk Grove and Citrus Heights.

Steinberg is the chair of the Senate Natural Resources and Water Committee. He also serves on the Senate Judiciary Committee, the Health Committee, the Environmental Quality Committee, the Budget and Fiscal Review Committee and Budget Subcommittee No. 2 on Resources. Steinberg also chairs the Senate Select Committee on High School Graduation.

In addition, Steinberg is a Senate appointee to the Mental Health Services Oversight and Accountability Commission (chair), the Wildlife Conservation Board, the California Ocean Protection Council and the Legislative Blue Ribbon Commission on Autism (chair)."
................................

Hmmmm, I think that Spitler may be in his district.




Again were playing catch up, if your not part of the "Davis 530 Club" as is 530 area code, your just out of the loop, all this was scripted years ago. The only saving grace is the fuel tax study release, may have left them in the same boat they left is with Trial Maintenance. They got their agenda though as far as closing trails, but they don't have the restoration funds to actually make them go away, so their sword also has two edges.

If the program was to crash and burn all together at this point, at least the trails will still physically be there, even if they are technically closed. So bottom line is get on the CORVA train, let's go for broke and the worst that could happen is nothing, at least the trails will still be there and we can find some other way to maintain them...


Brew
The only part of this that I see as positive is "Funds from the C&E account will be used to reimburse the FWS for the route inventory costs". For the last few years, the money has come from the non-CESA account. That account is where actual benifits to the OHV opportunity are funded from. The C&E account is for environmental and law enforcement projects.


That's nice of them now that there is no real mandated money, set aside for the C&E funds, "O" well Go kitty Go...JT

http://quietbike.org/CatFlushMovie.wmv

Final analysis,

Nothing in this for the Off Roaders, the fuel tax study makes the C&E funds issue moot, all sb742 does it shut down all Red Sticker riding, and write into Law using OHV funds for Non Motorized recreation. Look at the numbers we now have nothing to loose, they already took all our money (O&M ) if we crash the program all together now at least they wont have the money to restore the trails. Bottom line if they wont let us maintain them, let’s at least make it so they can’t restore them, it don’t take a math guru to see it we have nothing to loose.


"Rich"
Do I understand this correctly? This link shows the total grants
distributed out of Green Sticker funds. The money we are forced to
pay to register an Off Highway Vehicle?

I did a little math and see that out of the $18 million available a
whopping $326,874 went to trail maintenance. That's 1.8% OBSCENE!!
Where else did the money go?

Restoration (taking back trails?) 42%
Law Enforcement 22%
Planning (Gov't employees?) 16.3%
Conservation 6%
Research 4%
FOM (WHAT is that???) 4%
Equipment (mostly for LE) 2.4%
Trail Maintenance 1.8%
Education 1.1%
Development 1%

Interesting, disheartening and sickening all in one!

Information is the oxygen of the modern age. It seeps through the
walls topped by barbed wire, it wafts across the electrified borders.

Government's view of the economy could be summed up in a few short
phrases: If it moves, tax it. If it keeps moving, regulate it. And if
it stops moving, subsidize it.

Government always finds a need for whatever money it gets.

Freedom is never more than one generation away from extinction. We
didn't pass it to our children in the bloodstream. It must be fought
for, protected, and handed on for them to do the same.




:evil: Far as I’m concerned it’s make it or break it, or "the grenade round" as they call the last quaffing round in top fuel, when you make the cut or you bring it home broke. These numbers don’t make the cut, let’s go for broke…TJ
The Country is ran by the few that show up.
They are lead by the even fewer that step up.

http://WWW.TEAMSTEALTH.ORG Noise issue information.
http://WWW.OHMVR.COM Total Off Road Recreation!

Tom Tammone

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Post by crash »

Once again, WHERE ARE THE MAJOR MANUFACTURERS?????

Without a place to ride them, quads, snowmobiles, and motorcycles are USELESS and WORTHLESS!!!!

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tomjeeps2
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Post by tomjeeps2 »

Good :!: :!: :!: :!: :!: :!:
The Country is ran by the few that show up.
They are lead by the even fewer that step up.

http://WWW.TEAMSTEALTH.ORG Noise issue information.
http://WWW.OHMVR.COM Total Off Road Recreation!

Tom Tammone

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tomjeeps2
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Post by tomjeeps2 »

Brew
Tom, I got a good chuckle out of the picture in my mind, having Spitler and Greene going at it verbally.

BTW, Spitlers term ends Jan. 2008. He may have generated enough bad press between the audit, the blocked grants last year, and TWO law suits, that he wouldn't be considered for reappointment.


I really don't know why there may be resistance with the Governors office in getting ED reappointed, but if Greene really cared about the program she could resign as Deputy Director, and ask the Governor to appoint her to the Commission. If she can prove she's worth that 106K a year she can again resign the Commission, and the Governor can reappoint her again as Deputy Director. If they always want to push the legal envelope this is the way, we can beat the riparian policy by getting the Vacant Commission seat filled, till the Governor figures out what to do...TJ :evil:

Also I hear Spitler already has the whole meeting scripted, and there is nothing we can do about it is the word I get, B.S. I say, this would rain on Spitlers parade and everyone knows it. :wink:
The Country is ran by the few that show up.
They are lead by the even fewer that step up.

http://WWW.TEAMSTEALTH.ORG Noise issue information.
http://WWW.OHMVR.COM Total Off Road Recreation!

Tom Tammone

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Post by Brewster »

What benefit would there be to having Daphne Greene take the open position on the Commission? The Commission would still be unbalanced. Would YOU give up a $106,000 a year job for a $50. per meeting position where you could not get things accomplished due to the makeup of the Commission?


BTW, the meeting transcipts are finally up on the OHMVR Commission web site;
http://www.ohv.parks.ca.gov/default.asp?page_id=21853

Ride on
Brewster

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tomjeeps2
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Post by tomjeeps2 »

Would YOU give up a $106,000 a year job for a $50. per meeting position where you could not get things accomplished due to the makeup of the Commission?
Hey Brew, is that the only reason she came back? is that why she left the Commission? Quack Quack :wink:
The Country is ran by the few that show up.
They are lead by the even fewer that step up.

http://WWW.TEAMSTEALTH.ORG Noise issue information.
http://WWW.OHMVR.COM Total Off Road Recreation!

Tom Tammone

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tomjeeps2
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Post by tomjeeps2 »

BTW, the meeting transcipts are finally up on the OHMVR Commission web site;
http://www.ohv.parks.ca.gov/default.asp?page_id=21853


Yes they got them all up, also glad to notice Greene reported only about 20 grants where incomplete this year, I missed her report if they released this before the regs comments deadline, I may have commented differently.
However my position on the need for an appeals process including binding arbitration stands, if anything it would keep things from getting tied up in court...TJ
The Country is ran by the few that show up.
They are lead by the even fewer that step up.

http://WWW.TEAMSTEALTH.ORG Noise issue information.
http://WWW.OHMVR.COM Total Off Road Recreation!

Tom Tammone

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