Response from Kynan Barrios to my Glass ticket

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OBSESSED
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Response from Kynan Barrios to my Glass ticket

Post by OBSESSED »

--- On Tue, 8/25/09, Kynan_Barrios@ca.blm.gov <Kynan_Barrios@ca.blm.gov> wrote:

From: Kynan_Barrios@ca.blm.gov <Kynan_Barrios@ca.blm.gov>
Subject: Re: Fw: el centro feedback
To: Valerie_Kastoll@ca.blm.gov
Cc: sand-obsessed@sbcglobal.net
Date: Tuesday, August 25, 2009, 11:01 AM


Steve, I've read your letter a couple of times now. Thanks for your comments. Also, your citation was dismissed because you claimed to have picked up the bottles in question from another campsite and stated you were a steward of the dunes. If you are a steward of the dunes, you must realize how fragile the peace is during the high visitor use winter months because of the risk taking visitors attracted to OHV recreation. The job Rangers perform, visitor safety and resource protection, is hard enough and having members of the public berate and mock us does not help. It promotes lawless crowd mentality behavior. Respecting authority is a quality I was taught as a child, I hope you were, too.

<><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>
Kynan Barrios
Chief Ranger
Bureau of Land Management
El Centro Field Office

<><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>
My response back...

Less you forget:
My citation was not dismissed, and I am sure if I am caught with another bottle I will be hauled off….surely that is a hyperbole by me isn’t it?
---------------------
Anyway, Thanks for getting back to me!
Since I have you here, I want to ask you why can't the visitors at the ISDRA be counted correct? Why does the BLM use a flawed method [2.5 people for every 3 axles?] of counting visitors to the ISDRA?
The fly over counts done by private means showed at least a 40% over count, which means you/BLM/budget masters will request a 40% too high budget to manage ISDRA, which means that some times there will be three Rangers to a SUV looking to write bad glass bottle tickets on a Boring quiet holiday weekend.
Which also means you will think those hired to sell permits are not doing their jobs because the permits sold do not match your bogus counts! This whole mess of too many rangers, wasted time, bad tickets is all tied to the over count by the BLM. The private contractor brought in to sell permits ... three years ago couldn't get the permit sales to match the counts and neither could the Sheriff’s who took over. Who ever sells the permits this year will also not be able to match the counts and you will continue to chase the wrong rabbit! You will never be able to sell enough permits to the phantom users of the ISDRA… You’ll just have to raise permit fees over and over [like a tax on the users of the ISDRA] to fund your flawed counting methods! See below my example of your flawed counts…
What you do not understand, is most ISDRA users accept the corrupt and wasteful methods the BLM uses to manage the ISDRA, because we have no choice. We love the sand so much, we would gladly pay $75 per weekend if needed! And I think the BLM abuses this notion!
I do not accept the counts, the extra rangers needed, the methods used to hire and bring in the holiday rangers. I do not respect your bogus authority, and reasoning, and the trickle down writing of us the law abiders.
Example: My friend Harlan, was packing up after being at Glamis [at Cement Flats] for ten days. As he always does he walked around looking for trash left behind from the kids camped near him...and he found a old Corona bottle someone had left behind. Since he was already 'chewing' he used this old bottle for a spittoon. As luck would have it, a bored ranger came down and right into his space and wrote him a ticket for glass. How should I respect this abundant show of authority? If the ranger doesn't follow the law in writing a ticket, how can that be respected?

The British Are Coming! The British are coming!
Our for fathers showed respect for authority when it was do.
Since you are a Government Worker empowered by and for our government you seem to think you are the authority...
The BLM Rangers Unnecessarily brought in for holiday weekends at the ISDRA are poorly trained. If they do not know or understand the "Law" how can a normal guy like myself show respect?



-----------------------------------------------------

Now here is the real story, see if you can follow along!
--------------------------------------------------------------------

Two articles are quoted here:

Imperial Valley Police Briefs By VICTOR MORALES, Staff Writer
Saturday, November 24, 2007 10:50 PM PST
Dunes visitors keep officials hopping
IMPERIAL DUNES RECREATION AREA — An estimated 150,000 people visited the Imperial Dunes Recreation Area

And

Thursday, November 22, 2007 11:16 PM PST IMPERIAL SAND DUNES RECREATION AREA - Despite thousands of off-road enthusiasts whizzing by on motorized conveyors, looking and sounding like giant insects, the Imperial Sand Dunes seems sufficiently big and beautiful enough to provide a sense of tranquil leisure for Shauna Price. The mental worry and emotional strain that often plague Thanksgiving family gatherings is oddly absent at Price’s camp, where 50 of her family members and friends arrived in a 20-car caravan Monday.
… … …
It’s estimated by the Bureau of Land Management that 150,000 to 180,000 people will visit the dunes during this Thanksgiving weekend, typically the single busiest weekend of the year in the dunes, which is just 30 miles east of Brawley.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Reading between the lines in these two articles you find reality, and explaining the why.

Both articles say 150,000 people visited. In years past, it was said 180,000 to 200,000 and the greens would say we were scorching the earth with 220,000 to 250,000 visitors. Why the 150,000 visitor number is important is this: The BLM budgets government dollars for the dunes. The government forces too many government employees into the area. Which eats up the budget, when the moneys gone, they waste and must spend every penny, or next years budget will be lower. I have long said, [the numbers above point to my beliefs], the BLM wastes your money. Too many LEO’s and EMT’s. It look like this year, the BLM may be projecting a better number. Why? Maybe because when Dr Haas’ count is in, it will prove the BLM has over counted by 25 to 40%! This years estimate of visitors is 25% less than last years. Wonder of wonders.
Then, another reality check: quoted from above--”Price’s camp, where 50 of her family members and friends arrived in a 20 car caravan…”
Doesn’t the BLM count these 20 cars as [20 X 3.5 =] 70 people? Again this 3.5 number is more than 25% off, as they always will be, and have been.

You say: It’s just an estimate Steve, it shouldn’t matter! I continue to beat this dead horse, it matters to me, but obviously nobody else seems to care if the BLM wastes your ISDRA Money.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
So, to get 180,000 visitors counting how the BLM counts, that would equal over 51,000 Primary Camp Vehicles {PCV}.
My primary camp vehicle is 69’ long, another in my group is 55’ and another is 72’ [yes we are breaking a law]. Your PCV may only be 20’ long, or maybe 35’ total trailer and truck. My point is I believe the average falls around 50 feet, but I’ll lower this to only 40 feet. I believe this 51,000 counted PCV’s is still an over count. Why? 40’ X 51,000 = 2,040,000 feet in linear feet. Divide 2 million by 5,280’ [a mile] and you get over 380 miles in length of PCV’s!!???
I know there are/were a lot of PCV’s at the ISDRA over TG, and there were a lot of camp circles, and end to end on Gecko road, but come on, 380 miles [if all vehicles were touching] now that’s a traffic jam!
So, if there was a little space between vehicles, do you think, that there was possibly enough PCV’s to stretch from The north Dunes Ranger Station to Pair-A-Dice, there is a lot of open space there, so yea it sounds like there could be that many people at the ISDRA….
Well, the BLM counts enough PCV’s to go from the Ranger Station, down to Pair-A-Dice and back over TWENTY TIMES! Now how far off do you think they count?
25 PCV wide end to end all the way down?!

Why do I care?
Why should you care?


Who gains if the counts are as far off as I speculate? You draw your own conclusions…..

The truth will set you free!

Go back and read the articles, no where do they say visitation is down this year, again, draw your own conclusions.



I know I am just beating a dead horse... so be it!

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Re: Response from Kynan Barrios to my Glass ticket

Post by Rekd »

I'm going to blast this all over the interwebs, Steve.

If you have an issue with that, let me know in the next week or so. Otherwise, well, you know... :mrgreen:
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Re: Response from Kynan Barrios to my Glass ticket

Post by Mudkattgowfo »

It seems like the Government is always skewing the numbers to the benefit of the government. I wonder how my Season Pass counts into the mix as I had a friend buy mine last year and then as I live in Washigton state I was unable to enjoy the Glamis Dunes. There were actually a few of us that got caught in this.

I too am one of those that carrys one of those magnets on wheels and cleans out fire pits of nails and such. All of tht goes into the big green trash bag as well as the glass bottles. We have even gone to the extent of pictures of our clean up just in case we are questioned. I have been stopped in many places, not just Glamis, and with the bag full of all kinds of stuff and the pics I have only gotten a ticket once, in Michigan of all places, and it was later dismissed. I, as you do, continue to beat the dead horse and just hope to see a glimmer of realization that not all of us are bad people.

And finally I do have a favor to ask of you and that is to not mix the medical people in with the LEO's. As an worker in the Hospital ICU I have come across scenes in the Desert that I could only pray/hope for more hands to help. I do not wish to overinflate numbers to get them, but do not want them lumped in the wrong area either.

Thanks for Listening

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Re: Response from Kynan Barrios to my Glass ticket

Post by jhitesma »

Sounds like about what I was expecting from our new head ranger.

A big continuation of the "Us against them" attitude towards duners that creates tension and reinforces the type of problems he claims to be combating.

As I've said for years it all comes down to the bottom line. The LE agencies covering the dunes have a vested interest in NOT solving the problems. Instead of solutions we get sweet talk followed by actions that show they're not interested in solving anything because then their gravy train of funding will be cut back. As long as they can continue to perpetuate the myth of an out of control wasteland they can continue to milk the public for more and more funds to combat the problems they are only helping to create.

It's time for accountability of the law enforcement at the dunes. It has been time for years.

If Kynan doesn't want his staff to be berated and mocked then he should know not to berate and mock those he is asking to extend that courtesy. His letter does both. And that's from the Chief ranger? The problems in the dunes start at the top and comments like these make it obvious where the problems are coming from.

I know it's a political hot button but it's well past time for the ASA to take a stand against the abuse and waste related to LE activities at the dunes. I'm not saying the ASA should be against LE - that's never been my position. Only that the ASA should take a stronger stand against the BLM and ICSO's "us against them" attitude and refusal to answer to the hard questions.

It's the same reason I refused to accept the duners pledge and checkered flag program when it was first started. I do not support <B>ALL</b> law enforcement activities at the dunes as like with any population (including duners) there are bad eggs in the batch who don't follow the rules and who do take part in activities that are not correct. I do however support <b>effective</b> law enforcement at the dunes that is focused on visitor support and safety. Sadly that is not what we've gotten in the past and I see no sign of it changing. Instead get we law enforcement that is solely focused on making their job easier while at the same time giving the impression to those who hold the purse strings that things are not improving to justify ever growing budgets.

It was telling when I spoke with Kynan in Phoenix that he claimed repeatedly that very few tickets were issued on Ted Kipf but many warnings were given. Even though even in the small group present at that time there were those with personal accounts of tickets with no warnings - and not a single person who had received or seen a warning given. After hearing Kynan make his claim several times I asked him to substantiate it with numbers. How many warnings were given vs. how many tickets? Should have been a simple question to answer since it was only asking him to back up his claims. I got several excuses finally culminating in "I don't have those number available at this moment". I asked if he could make some calls and have those numbers for that evenings meeting where the real hard questions were likely to be asked. The response to that was "It would take a FOIA request to get those numbers". When I asked for details about what should be asked for in such a request I finally got the the truthful answer "there are no numbers as we don't track how many warnings are issued."

A simple question giving the chief ranger a chance to back his own claims with hard facts resulted in multiple lies, misdirections and attempts to change the subject.

You can guess how he responded to the hard questions asked later that evening.

As I said previously, I do not expect things to get better this year but would love to be proven wrong.

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Re: Response from Kynan Barrios to my Glass ticket

Post by Voice »

Steve, I've read your letter a couple of times now. Thanks for your comments. Also, your citation was dismissed because you claimed to have picked up the bottles in question from another campsite and stated you were a steward of the dunes. If you are a steward of the dunes, you must realize how fragile the peace is during the high visitor use winter months because of the risk taking visitors attracted to OHV recreation. The job Rangers perform, visitor safety and resource protection, is hard enough and having members of the public berate and mock us does not help. It promotes lawless crowd mentality behavior. Respecting authority is a quality I was taught as a child, I hope you were, too.
I too, had some serious problems with the above response that Jason highlighted very well.
This kind of things strikes to the heart of a great many heated debates I've had in the past concerining the whole "If you do nothing wrong then you have nothing to worry about", mentality.

Here it seems pretty clear that "doing nothing wrong" can get you into a heap of trouble.
He says: "Also, your citation was dismissed because you claimed to have picked up the bottles in question from another campsite and stated you were a steward of the dunes."
What is the legal precident that shows being a "steward of the dunes" as a defense for having a glass bottle??
Does that mean that all I have to say is that I'm a steward of the dunes and I can have glass?
I know, that's absurd but these are things that matter. if we cannot count on the law being consistant then what is the point of having law?
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Re: Response from Kynan Barrios to my Glass ticket

Post by The Oldtimer »

This guy is a cop...he just might be an "us against them" cop. They do exist because a cop friend tells me that based on his experience, that mentality is the rule rather than the exception, especially when you are in a non glamorous, the "real" cops think you are just security guards, type of a job. An added complication is that they are also part of a huge seemingly inept and likely underfunded (by their standards) Federal bureaucracy...

His answer is pure political BS, plus Steve's remarks and his perceived attitude made it easier to be condescending in his response.

Guess what? He doesn't give a **** what we think. He will serve his tour, the Peter principle theory will promote him, and his remarks will look good to the bureaucrat that does the promoting.

There...I said it...!!!
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Re: Response from Kynan Barrios to my Glass ticket

Post by Sloppyduner »

Jason,and others, may recall that when the notion that some LEO volunteers was brought up, Kynan eyes lit up and he said "Have em call us we'll put them to work" I'm sure he was talking about those duners who are LEOs in their home towns and so on. I've been wondering If we took an ASA member, who is a LEO, and have him work the dunes to see first hand what it is like for the rangers to give us a better understanding of both sides.
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Re: Response from Kynan Barrios to my Glass ticket

Post by Glamisbound »

:shock:
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Re: Response from Kynan Barrios to my Glass ticket

Post by Sloppyduner »

Glamisbound wrote::shock:
I was hoping that would get your attention Det GB. I was thinking about you when Kynan said that.

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Re: Response from Kynan Barrios to my Glass ticket

Post by MattV »

Sloppyduner wrote:Jason,and others, may recall that when the notion that some LEO volunteers was brought up, Kynan eyes lit up and he said "Have em call us we'll put them to work" I'm sure he was talking about those duners who are LEOs in their home towns and so on. I've been wondering If we took an ASA member, who is a LEO, and have him work the dunes to see first hand what it is like for the rangers to give us a better understanding of both sides.
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Re: Response from Kynan Barrios to my Glass ticket

Post by azsandrider »

I'll go on a weekend ride along with them to see their operations.....

It would be better if they started a citizens ride along program...Then you would see what the BLM LEOs really have to putup with....

I even offered to hold a RADAR qualification for BLM as CHP won't do it for them....

:mrgreen: :mrgreen: :mrgreen:
(The above statement is my own opinion and not that of the ASA's.)

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Re: Response from Kynan Barrios to my Glass ticket

Post by gelwell »

azsandrider wrote:I'll go on a weekend ride along with them to see their operations.....

It would be better if they started a citizens ride along program...Then you would see what the BLM LEOs really have to putup with....

I even offered to hold a RADAR qualification for BLM as CHP won't do it for them....

:mrgreen: :mrgreen: :mrgreen:
A RADAR QUALIFICATION??? :shock: So BLM can pull us over for doing 18 mph in a 15 mph, where most of us have no speedometers. I see that as a nightmare. I have no problem with the ride alongs I think that is a good program for all LE. I am not in favor of radar in the dunes. I and many others have no way of checking our speed. What's next speed limits in the bowls? Further I have no problem enforcing the speed limits in camp areas. That clearly needs enforcement. But I dont want to see people being ticketed because they maybe a few mph's over with no real idea how fast they are doing. It is pretty clear BLM, Forest circus enforcement and other federal LEO types dont really know all the rules as has been spelled out over this board. I really see this as a potential for abuse by them, since they know most us will just pay the ticket rather than fight it.
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Re: Response from Kynan Barrios to my Glass ticket

Post by L&L Corvairs »

On the subject of counting ISDRA visitors.

I agree with Steve that it would be much better if we had accurate counts, at least of primary vehicles.

In discussions with Neil Hamada earlier this year, he freely admits that the ‘axel counting’ method is not accurate in terms of the final number. However, he has a very valid point in that they can see an increase or decrease in visitor use because the data collection method is consistent over many years.

We have this circular argument every year. Same ol’, same ol’.

Personally, like a broken record, if you want to know exactly how many people use the area, put up fences and gates. Anything else will always be an estimate.
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