BLM bans playing horseshoes for our safety!!

[WoodIsGood]

After seeing this post, and following the link to the new BLM rules, I sent the following email to BLM:

According to this rule:
5. It is prohibited to place into the ground any non-flexible object, such as, but not limited to, metal or wood stakes, poles, or pipes, with the exception of small tent or awning stakes, at all developed sites and areas and all ORV open areas.
it appears that horseshoe stakes would be prohibited within a person's camp at Glamis. Please tell me this isn't so.

BLM replied with the following:

non-flexible horseshoe stakes would not be allowed under this rule.

Lynnette Elser
Planning & Environmental Coordinator
California Desert District Office
951-697-5233

Horseshoe stakes, by definition, are inflexible, so I asked:

Ms. Elser,

Presumably these rules were created to improve the safety of people recreating on BLM land. Are horseshoe stakes an unintended victim of this rule, or do they pose a significant threat to public safety that I'm unaware of?

I'd also like to know why rule 5 was created in the first place? What current problem is BLM trying to address?

Thanks for your help in this matter.

To which BLM responded:

BLM was trying to reduce the risk to visitors from signs and stakes that could impale someone or puncture someone's tire if driven over. Rebar and other non-flexible material used with flagging to mark trails or pathways or camping areas is a problem, as well as small stakes that people 'forget' when they leave. The concern is that non-flexible stakes or posts could impale someone or pop tires. Horseshoe stakes can pop a tire if a vehicle would drive over them. They could also impale someone.

Lynnette Elser

I never imagined that in an effort to "enhance the safety of visitors, protect public health, protect natural resources, and improve recreation experiences and opportunities" the government would outlaw playing horseshoes in significant portions of the desert. When will the insanity stop?

Guess I need to send them my polite comments explaining their apparent insanity before the July 26, 2010 deadline. Maybe you should too.

[quadfather]

Government agencies will never cease to amaze you.

I hope your summer is going well and the family is enjoying it too. Say hello to Linda, Jason and Brian for me.

I hope to see you in the fall at Glamis.

Bob

[MattV]

This would also eliminate the possibility of using a stake or similar for winching or vehicle recovery purposes. Maybe an exemption for horseshoes and similar games, and for recovery purposes, provided that they are actively being used and not left unattended...

[LoBuck]

I will print this post and bring it up during our discussion of the new supplementl rules at the 7/23/10 DAC ISDRA Sub Group meeting.

There will also be 2 public comment periods for anyone interested in attending.

[Glamisbound]

Lynette really needs to be trained in how better to address her boss, the general public. The response reeks of angst.

[L&L Corvairs]

Sorry, guys. I’m with the BLM on this one. I can’t imagine anything worse at night then a metal stake sticking about 12” out of the ground. And don’t tell me on a 3+ day trip out there you’ll be taking your horse shoe stakes up each night because I’ll call BS.

Like I said on Glamis Dunes.com. Yeah, I enjoy the occasional game of horse shoes. But I don’t spend $500 in gas and food and drive 3-4 hrs to do it. Got better things to do in the sand.

YMMV

[WoodIsGood]

Sorry, guys. I’m with the BLM on this one. I can’t imagine anything worse at night then a metal stake sticking about 12” out of the ground. And don’t tell me on a 3+ day trip out there you’ll be taking your horse shoe stakes up each night because I’ll call BS.

We stick a large traffic cone over the stakes so no one bumps into the stakes accidentally. You (the generic you, not you specifically) shouldn't be riding or walking through my camp at night anyway. And the stakes won't be left behind when we leave for obvious reasons.

Not allowing the use of metal stakes to mark camp perimeters, etc. makes perfect sense. Making the ban so generic it includes things like horseshoe stakes is the problem.

This ban doesn't affect you, but the next one might. I, too, rarely play horseshoes at the dunes; it's the unreasonableness of the rule that gets me. I tend to speak out against pretty much any rule I find unreasonable, whether it affects me or not.

[ChuckZilla]

Here's the problem. Nobody wants metal stakes in the ground for obvious reasons, and users want the rangers to enforce any rules regarding stakes or metal put in the ground intentionally. You guys want to be able to play horseshoes, Ranger X approaches a camp with metal stakes in the ground that aren't being used for horseshoes and gets the perfect answer, "they're for horseshoes". Now you're putting the Rangers in the position of having to figure out what exactly the stake is for, or who is lying and who isn't. You know there are probably 1000 quad riders that ride so safely that they don't need helmets, but the Rangers don't know who the safe ones are and who aren't. I'm not on the side of banning or allowing horseshoes, I just see the problem of the BLM trying to make the place as safe as possible without getting themselves mired in endless arguments over trivial citations. Now here is HSSC to tell you all what a Liberal I am for not caring if we can play horseshoes in the dunes.

[L&L Corvairs]

I never said it didn’t affect me. I’ve got a horse shoe set I carry around in my trailer. But it's no loss for me, because the primary reason I go to the desert is to ride my toys. However, I’m responsible enough to pull the stakes out of the ground when I’m done playing and put them away. Some people do nothing. Some cover them with cones. Either way, left in the ground, they are still a hazard. People run over cones on the time. Usually by accident. On a busy weekend in the Washes, I’ve inadvertently driven into and through someone else’s camp, again, by accident in broad daylight, never mind how many times that happens at night. Even with caution tape and a wide open Wash, idiots drive within 15 yards of my rig. About the distance away I’d put the horse shoe pit. Happens all the time.

Bottom line, metal stakes in the ground, including horse shoe stakes, are a hazard. I’m sure you agree with that.

[gelwell]

Now here is HSSC to tell you all what a Liberal I am for not caring if we can play horseshoes in the dunes.

Now that is funny I don't care who you are.

My take is I think you should be able to play horeshoes in your camp. As long as they are safe, I think people are more inclined to hit them at night stubbling towards the MH, TH etc on the way to bed. But if we decide to play and have a game in progress when Randy Ranger shows up and wants to give me a citiation, would definitely nut me up. And I would be highly upset in that instance. But honestly of all the years I've been going to the dunes I dont think I've ever played them there. Mainly because of the L&L theory of duning rather than playing horseshoes or anything else for that matter. Sitting down to relax is a priority but that is rare too since there is always something that needs to be done in camp. When in doubt err on the side of safety.

[WoodIsGood]

Now you're putting the Rangers in the position of having to figure out what exactly the stake is for, or who is lying and who isn't.

Sorry, Chuck, but this makes it sound like you're questioning the intelligence of the rangers. It should be pretty clear whether stakes are for a horseshoe pit or not - this isn't rocket science.

Bottom line, metal stakes in the ground, including horse shoe stakes, are a hazard. I’m sure you agree with that.

I will agree that an unmarked and unattended metal stake in the ground is a hazard to someone riding by. So is a fire pit - I've certainly come close to hitting a vacant fire pit more than once. Should we ban digging fire pits to remove that hazard too? Where do we stop the bans?

Using rigid stakes to mark camp areas, trails, etc. is clearly hazardous, and safe, effective alternatives are available and should be used; banning the use of rigid stakes in this manner is reasonable.

Horseshoes is a common recreational activity that requires the use of rigid stakes. Given that unmarked stakes and unattended stakes can pose a hazard I can see requiring these stakes to be clearly marked (e.g. a flag of caution tape tied to the top, a cone set beside or over the stake, or painted a bright fluorescent color), or possibly even to be taken down when not in use; but an outright ban on putting stakes in the ground to play horseshoes is beyond unreasonable in my opinion.

[Rekd]

Bottom line, metal stakes in the ground, including horse shoe stakes, are a hazard. I’m sure you agree with that.

Want to know another bottom line?

I have never heard of someone getting impaled by a horseshoe stake while riding through someone's camp. Or getting a flat tire. And I've been actively tracking ATV related accidents for years! You ever hit one? Me either!

I'd be willing to be more people get hurt running into trailers, cars, bushes, other vehicles and the occasional rodent more than they'd hit an ef'n horseshoe stake.

Sheesh.

Do me a favor... find me some news reports of people actually getting impaled or even a flat tire by hitting a horseshoe stake. Cuz I couldn't!

Like I told Lynnette at the BLM; I'm sure there are more important things the BLM could be wasting my money on. Things that actually pose a threat!

[L&L Corvairs]

Another thing to bare in mind is that these rules are for the entire BLM management area, not just for the ISDRA. The goal is clearly to unify and make the rules consistent. Something we all have been complaining about. (Like burning pallets). We don’t know if this metal stake issue is not something the BLM has had to deal with at some other recreation area.

When people get injured, they or their survivors tend to sue.

In 2006 (or 07, not sure which TG)0 when those three kids were killed on the RR tracks, their parents were very courageous and honest, and did not sue the RR. BUT, hasn’t the RR also, very quietly, eliminated OHV access to their tracks and BMV? One has to wonder what the drop in train vs people incidents is along that stretch of track.

Do we have to have verifiable injuries before we enact reasonable safety measures? The primary purpose of going to the ISDRA is to recreate in our off road toys. That’s’ why the don’t allow them on Venice Beach.

Want to know another bottom line?

I have never heard of someone getting impaled by a horseshoe stake while riding through someone's camp.

Well, Rekd, how many do you need?

Or, how many on any kind of basis is acceptable to you?

My number is zero. What's yours?



PS For woody and rec’d (and the record)….just so you know, Mrs. L&L is on your side. She’s said verbatim just what you guys have said re running into fire pits, tent stakes horse shoe stakes etc. She feels that after 35+ yrs of duning and recreating out there, once t they start taking this away where does it stop?

[Rekd]

Want to know another bottom line?

I have never heard of someone getting impaled by a horseshoe stake while riding through someone's camp.

Well, Rekd, how many do you need?

Or, how many on any kind of basis is acceptable to you?

My number is zero. What's yours?

PS For woody and rec’d (and the record)….just so you know, Mrs. L&L is on your side. She’s said verbatim just what you guys have said re running into fire pits, tent stakes horse shoe stakes etc. She feels that after 35+ yrs of duning and recreating out there, once t they start taking this away where does it stop?

So you are ok with wasting my money and removing more of my freedoms based on something that I have not been able to find even ONE record of ever happening?

Really?

Honestly, if you're so worried about getting hurt out there that you'd be willing to ban something that has probably never happened, you shouldn't be out there. There's a lot more boo-boos you can get out there than running over a stinkin' horesshoe stake.

[jhitesma]

Do we have to have verifiable injuries before we enact reasonable safety measures? The primary purpose of going to the ISDRA is to recreate in our off road toys. That’s’ why the don’t allow them on Venice Beach.

Sorry. But there are already enough vague safety rules that could be used in instances where something is actually being done in an unsafe manner. There is no need for even more regulations and rules, if anything there are too many already.

Also the ISDRA is not only for off road recreation - once we go down that road we're no better than the enviros. The ISDRA is for RECREATION in all forms that can be enjoyed out there.

[gelwell]

Also the ISDRA is not only for off road recreation - once we go down that road we're no better than the enviros. The ISDRA is for RECREATION in all forms that can be enjoyed out there.

True including horseshoe tournaments

[jhitesma]

True including horseshoe tournaments

I know of at least one group that has a horseshoe tournament as part of their annual trip. They've even brought out construction lights to light their camp with so they could keep the tournament going after dark when they're done riding.

[valen76]

I think they should ban ATVs, sand in the crack of my @%, UTVs, the heat, dirt bikes, freezing weather, idiots, trains, sand rails, and all other OHVs because they kill people Ok well maybe just the heat, the sand in the crack of my @%, idiots, and the freezing weather. So what's next...you can only use 2 gallons of gas per 2 days? This crap is so stupid. I am so sick....thinking of selling the ATV and putting the money into to my Baja and sticking to the trails.

[Glamisbound]

Yup, banning horse shoes is straight up ridiculous...and a waste of tax payer money...it would be reasonable to have an exception in the law for horse shoe pits that are set up close to someones camp.

[Doc]

At the ISDRA DAC sub group meeting on Friday I specifically asked about the playing of horseshoes. The BLM officer cannot make a change to the existing rule but explained that it will be to the officers discretion how the rule is applied. If one is actively playing horseshoes and removes the metal stake when they have completed the game they should not have a problem.

This rule is trying to address the issue that many people put stakes in the ground, to mark their area, and then leave them when they leave. This is more of an issue at hard pack areas than at the ISDRA.

These supplemental rules were modified to have consistent rules for all the California Desert District (CDD) recreation areas. As you may know it was prohibited to burn pallets at Dumont but not at the ISDRA. With this update of the rules we know have consistent rule for all the recreation areas in the CDD. It will now be prohibited to burn firewood with metal in it anywhere in the CDD. Most of these rules were already in place at the ISDRA and this modification of these rules just makes them in effect across the entire CDD.

Link to the ISDRA Sub group page

Link to the CDD Supplemental rules

Link to previous ISDRA only supplemental rules

[doug]

why not weld a post to a plate and set it on the sand

[FE135]

My 2 cents. While at Glamis this may not be a problem, at Dumont it is a big one. Long sand dune "fingers" extend into the camping areas and people mark off big sections for their exclusive use. They use rebar and wood stakes. They claim it for themselves to allow their kids an area by camp to dune on the side of the fingers. It sucks when traversing back to camp, crossing a finger dune and running into these stakes with nowhere to turn out. Most of the time we just drive through the tape between them and have to find away out since they block access with their trailers and motorhomes. Basically, cording off a section of dunes for themselves. Not cool. And, they get angry with you over it. It’s not like I can just back up. For these reasons I'm all for the new rule. I do think they should publish a supplement about horse shoe stakes. They shouldn't be banned in your own camp.

[Glamisbound]

why not weld a post to a plate and set it on the sand

Now that is thinking outside the box...I like it =D>

Based on Wood's original post, which included ... "It is prohibited to place into the ground any non-flexible object"

If that represents the actual wording of the law, then you would have a good argument here.

[L&L Corvairs]

The BLM officer cannot make a change to the existing rule but explained that it will be to the officers discretion how the rule is applied. If one is actively playing horseshoes and removes the metal stake when they have completed the game they should not have a problem.

An obvious conclusion.

why not weld a post to a plate and set it on the sand

OR……you could drill a hole in the bottom of the plate and BOLT your metal stake in place. Make it easier to store the stuff.

Was wondering when someone would actually post this.