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Caution; political comments follow

Post by schraderrl »

If you have ever voted for Clinton, Gore, Feinstein or Boxer then I hope you feel uncomfortable
Please don’t give me anymore of this “I’m not a liberal or democrat” stuff and then tell me how you vote for democrats

One thing (of many) that gets to me about liberals is how they vacillate all over a subject as if to say “no you don’t understand, I didn’t mean that”

It’s like setting around the campfire and having a liberal give a sermon about global warming as he throws wood on the fire

And one more thing if the licentious Clintons had stepped down when he was impeached then Gore would have been President for a few months before the 2000 election and would have had a better chance to win that election
Before you jump in and tell me about the popular vote win crap let me remind you my California absentee ballot vote (for Bush) never got counted

Note to Republican and Bush voters in California
If you want to be sure your vote is counted don’t vote absentee

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Post by TEMPORARY INSANITY »

Thanks for the disclaimer-warning :!: :!: :!:
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Re: Caution; political comments follow

Post by sbheg »

Trolling are we?
schraderrl wrote:If you have ever voted for Clinton, Gore, Feinstein or Boxer then I hope you feel uncomfortable
Please don’t give me anymore of this “I’m not a liberal or democrat” stuff and then tell me how you vote for democrats

One thing (of many) that gets to me about liberals is how they vacillate all over a subject as if to say “no you don’t understand, I didn’t mean that”

It’s like setting around the campfire and having a liberal give a sermon about global warming as he throws wood on the fire

And one more thing if the licentious Clintons had stepped down when he was impeached then Gore would have been President for a few months before the 2000 election and would have had a better chance to win that election
Before you jump in and tell me about the popular vote win crap let me remind you my California absentee ballot vote (for Bush) never got counted

Note to Republican and Bush voters in California
If you want to be sure your vote is counted don’t vote absentee

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Post by schraderrl »

You’re the one that bumped the topic up to the top
The one that could not just let it go
It was twelve topics down until you came along and blew new life into it

I’d like to thank you for the bump but you’ll accuse me of trolling again

Its you; sbheg and poiks that are the ones that want to change the way the ASA does things around here
When I see someone pushing for change I think of that word that sets you two off, the “L” word
Its kind of funny how quiet “Ls” are when things are going their way and how loud they get when things don’t go their way

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Post by Poiks »

Bob, for you two label me and/or sbheg liberals without even knowing our political opinions (at least you don't know mine), and knowing in my case that I don't consider myself a liberal is, well, childish.

What are you trying to accomplish? I'll never see the world your way, and you'll never see it my way. I'm not trying to change or criticize you. Why are you trying to change or criticize me? Is it really too much for you to bear to have a whopping two people on this forum who aren't fans of George Dubya Bush?

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Post by schraderrl »

Jon, I don’t like change and I’m not trying to change you or any other off-roaders that vote democrat
It’s just
I don’t understand why people vote for more taxes
I don’t understand gun owners that vote for more gun laws
I don’t understand off-roaders that vote for more wilderness and fees
That’s all

BTW I think you’re the one guilty of bashing and name-calling and then you do that typical “L” style vacillating
Some of your nicer quotes I’ll list below. I will not quote your tasteless attacks on republicans and conservatives
“FWIW, I wasn't referring to you (or anyone else) personally.”

“First of all, I didn't really mean any of it”

“First of all, that was not a serious comment.”

“this quote was not serious.”

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Post by Poiks »

Well, I think I answered as best I can your question about why some people vote for Democratic candidates.

I guess I should have known that when I went ballistic on that thread (to make a point) that it would not be forgotten. The point, by the way, was that many people here can dish out the partisan insults but can't take them. I look forward to those quotes being used against me for the forseeable future.

Here's a little more insight into the minds of some others: I spoke to a woman tonight who virtually always votes Republican, and has spent a lot of time working for Republican candidates in her voting district outside Chicago. She's not voting for Bush because he wouldn't sign the Kyoto Accords.

There are lots of people with different priorities than the off-road community. It doesn't surprise me, and it shouldn't surprise you.

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Post by OBSESSED »

Poiks wrote:.


Here's a little more insight into the minds of some others: I spoke to a woman tonight who virtually always votes Republican, and has spent a lot of time working for Republican candidates in her voting district outside Chicago. She's not voting for Bush because he wouldn't sign the Kyoto Accords.
JonImage -JonImage -JonImage ....

Now there's a hotImage button topic...

Jon, Image
why were you and this alleged woman Image talking about Kyoto?

Talk about wantingImage to stir it up!

:wink: Bait-bait-bait.... :roll:

There was no Republican womanImage as you say Jon, you are making it Up!
All you want to do is rub Image Bob'sImage rash?

Am IImage right?Image

Even I Imagewouldn't biteImage on that one....

TransparentImage Jon, Transparent!Image

This is your funniest thing you ever wrote/made up!

YouImage crackImage me Image up!Image

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Post by Poiks »

OBSESSED wrote:why were you and this alleged woman Image talking about Kyoto?
We weren't--we were talking about Bush. I don't even know anything about Kyoto except that it was pollution-related (and since it's almost midnight, I'm not going to google it).

Steve, I don't make stuff up. I was referring to my fiancé's Mom, who lives in Downer's Grove, IL (I know it's a weird name). She is a staunch anti-abortion activist, which has led her to vote Republican for most of her life, though she says she votes on the issues not on party lines.

You really disappoint me, Steve. This may be some big game for you (like the anti-Semite accusation that you privately admitted was just for revenge), but it's not for me. Speaking of which, did you forget that it was not me who called you a racist?

Do you think I'm trying to "convert" people? If so...to what? I dislike Kerry and have not decided to vote for him...I may not vote at all, given the choices. I have nothing to gain from being involved in these discussions (here) except maybe a small dose of self respect for having had the balls to stand up for what I believe against a whole lot of people who basically don't want to hear it and don't respect it.

The more I read from you Steve, the more you're coming off like a [self censored]. First you call me an anti-semite, now you're calling me a liar. Sorry "big guy," but I'm neither, and any respect I had for you as a result of your cleanup efforts has now evaporated.

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Post by schraderrl »

A side note; that liberal giving me the speech about global warming was my 22 YO stepson and I have been his father since he was 11 months old. He never met his biological father
That Sequoia campfire discussion was a few weeks ago and last weekend I drove him to NAU for another year college so I can’t wait for next years camping trip

My 18 YO son (same mother as 22 YO) was asking me for a Bush bumper sticker the other day

So political beliefs may be more genetics

Maybe I should play it safe, save my money and talk the 18YO out of college
Ya, that’s the ticket,

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Post by Poiks »

FWIW, my gut feeling is that "global warming" is baloney.

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Post by schraderrl »

Ya I was telling my son they still don’t know what warms the center of the Earth
One of the latest theories is gravity alone would not keep it as hot as it is (5000F)? and that it may have something to do with radioactive decay
Did you know lead is the end product of radioactive elements, one being uranium

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Post by FunRunner »

Poiks
FWIW, my gut feeling is that "global warming" is baloney.
I don't think a lot of people understand what the Kyoto Treaty is all about; Bush was right to not entangle the U.S. in another world treaty where the U.S. does most of the bending; awareness and general striving to not damage the environment is called for; sweeping changes that alter business and energy procedures are too penal and should be introduced and put into use where possible as is economically feasible.
Just like the U.N., other world treaties seem to end up affecting the U.S. far more than other countries, as Europe is more do as I say than following the letter of the agreements and countries like China and Mexico are not going to adhere to the standards expected of the U.S. It is unfortunate that environmentalists can cry wolf, and there are those who believe the heart wrenching tales of doom.

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Post by OBSESSED »

Poiks wrote:
OBSESSED wrote:why were you and this alleged woman Image talking about Kyoto?
We weren't--we were talking about Bush. I don't even know anything about Kyoto except that it was pollution-related (and since it's almost midnight, I'm not going to google it).


You really disappoint me, Steve.


Look Jon, Kyoto is so weird that you would bring it up. How you wrote the story, was so intriguing. Sorry if what I say "disappoints you". I just had a knee jerk reaction to your post. I thought it so extremely funny! [Hence the Devils] Your girlfriends mom better do a research on Kyoto, the more she knows the more she will not like it!
It is an ANTI USA Accord. Not a Anti Pollution Accord.

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Post by Gottaride »

Steve, I don't make stuff up. I was referring to my fiancé's Mom, who lives in Downer's Grove, IL (I know it's a weird name
Hey, I grew up in Downers Grove and only live about 4 miles from Downers now. Small world.

Oops, sorry for highjacking :)

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Post by Poiks »

OK Steve, I will grant you that the way I wrote that sounded like a story. The reason I wrote it the way I did was that it involves my fiancé's family, and I didn't really want to get into who the person was I was referring to. Jane (my fiancé) already thinks I'm nuts for spending so much time on this forum, and doesn't understand why the things that people say on here get under my skin. :?

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Post by Poiks »

Gottaride wrote:Hey, I grew up in Downers Grove and only live about 4 miles from Downers now. Small world.
Small world it is! I stayed in Lombard during the Summer of '96, while taking some training in Burr Ridge. I lived near Finley and Butterfield, and remember a Fudrucker's restaurant and a club called Oliver's. Spent a lot of time wandering around the Oak Brook mall while the other people I trained with went downtown to get hammered (I was 32; they were mostly about 22).

Anyway, my fiancé was still living in D.G. back in '96 when I was there. Her parents are still there, and her Mom used to teach (middle school, I think) until her retirement last year.

Recently we started doing business with a data service provider called Acxiom. Their sales guy gave me their business card, and--sure enough--they're in Downers Grove. Somehow that place keeps popping up!

We now return to our regularly scheduled programming, already in progress...

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Post by airkuld »

"She's not voting for Bush because he wouldn't sign the Kyoto Accords."

Wow, haven't heard that in awhile, now why was it he wouldn't sign? You are correct, everyone has their buttons, but geez, Kyoto? A reason to switch? Something smells a little fishy about that one. Or maybe it's just cause I haven't taken a shower yet after getting back from the river.

Edited - ahh, I see this one has been fished out. Hit the reply button a little too quick! Must remember to put satlink and laptop on boat next time.

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Post by Poiks »

Funny thing is, although she said she wouldn't vote for Bush, she didn't say who she will vote for (or if she'll vote at all). Being no big fan of Bush or Kerry myself, I can see her dilemma.

Anyway, if you knew her you'd understand why she took that position. She's a huge environmentalist, and even does recycling "consulting" for school districts.

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Post by OBSESSED »

recycling "consulting" for school districts
Now Jon, if your Girlfriends Mother was fired from her post, the school districts she works for would have more $$$ for books? No?

Nevermind, I want her job:

"Fred, bring me the Hammer, smash that can, now you're going to call the school district and tell them, hold that, consult with them about it..."

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Post by Poiks »

OBSESSED wrote:Now Jon, if your Girlfriends Mother was fired from her post, the school districts she works for would have more $$$ for books? No?
Unfortunately, it doesn't work that way. Districts are given specific grants for recycling projects; if they don't use the funds for those purposes, they lose them.
OBSESSED wrote:"Fred, bring me the Hammer, smash that can, now you're going to call the school district and tell them, hold that, consult with them about it..."
Well, it's more like: Kids, dump out all those cafeteria trash cans and separate the recyclables from the trash. Put all the #1 plastics in one pile, all the #2 plastics in another pile, all the aluminum and glass in their own piles.... They call them "waste audits."

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Post by sbheg »

schraderrl wrote:Jon, I don’t like change and I’m not trying to change you or any other off-roaders that vote democrat
It’s just
I don’t understand why people vote for more taxes
I don’t understand gun owners that vote for more gun laws
I don’t understand off-roaders that vote for more wilderness and fees
That’s all
BOB, FYI, sbheg is 47,
I was a Moderate Republican since I could vote; I became a Libertarian when GWB whom I voted for did not live up to what he sold me. GWB is a uniter not a divider; he is the most devise president we have had.

If I vote for a Demarcate I'll have a very good reason too, because I rarely vote for a Democrat due to their fiscal irresponsibility in general they spend my money.

I allways vote against Laws that limit my rights, like guns, even though I do not have any. I have shot guns since I was 10 years old. I vote for all Laws that repeal social limits imposed by others, usually conservatives.

I vote against tax increases, bonds, and etc. 90% of the time.

I have no problem with Fees for our Parks and public lands that are used by the public. I like the pit toilets over at Graves, wish they would spend money on the Gordens side. I have no fancy TB or MH to use facilities.

I am against laws legislating what I can't and can do from a social stance, which conservative Republicans love to do!

IMO, I'll tell you what is worse then a Conservative Republican is a Conservative Democrat! They spend all my money and tell me what to do! Or is it that because she is my sister in-law :-). Hmm, no she is just so misguided.

Bob from where you sit, is every one a liberal or just poiks and myself?

sbheg

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Post by airkuld »

"GWB .... he is the most divisive president we have had.

...and....

If I vote for a Democrat I'll have a very good reason to...."

Hey SB, I think I got this right, looks like you were in a hurry, but I interpreted your statement to be that GWB has divided the country and that's the main reason why you might vote Democrat even though you normally wouldn't.

If I got this right, I'd like to hear your support for these statements.

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Post by Voice »

Bush because he wouldn't sign the Kyoto Accords.

Kyoto? In a nutshell... Place the HIGHEST RESTRICTIONS POSSIBLE, enforcible by the UN, on the most industrialized countries, regardless of their pollution levels and place the lowest, or NO restrictions on those less highly evolved, who are doing most of the poluting!

Giving up US soveringty, clearly. Kyoto doesn't deserve a second look!
Mahmoud Ahmedinejad in a letter to President Elect Barak Obama
"May God Almighty ... bless the leaders of societies with the courage to learn from the mistakes of predecessors,"
"I hope that you will be able to take fullest advantage of the opportunity to serve and leave behind a positive legacy."

Image

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Post by sbheg »

airkuld wrote:"GWB .... he is the most divisive president we have had.

...and....

If I vote for a Democrat I'll have a very good reason to...."

Hey SB, I think I got this right, looks like you were in a hurry, but I interpreted your statement to be that GWB has divided the country and that's the main reason why you might vote Democrat even though you normally wouldn't.

If I got this right, I'd like to hear your support for these statements.
Never said I would be voting for Kerry, I did say that I have voted on occasion for a Democrat. If you must know I will not be voting for Bush, but for the libertarian candidate Michael Badnarik!
Image

I hope that is clearer.
sbheg

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Post by airkuld »

sbheg wrote:
airkuld wrote:"GWB .... he is the most divisive president we have had.

...and....

If I vote for a Democrat I'll have a very good reason to...."

Hey SB, I think I got this right, looks like you were in a hurry, but I interpreted your statement to be that GWB has divided the country and that's the main reason why you might vote Democrat even though you normally wouldn't.

If I got this right, I'd like to hear your support for these statements.
Never said I would be voting for Kerry, I did say that I have voted on occasion for a Democrat. If you must know I will not be voting for Bush, but for the libertarian candidate Michael Badnarik!
Image

I hope that is clearer.
sbheg
I have never heard his name one time in this election, wow. I guess Nader must be getting all the fringe vote coverage attention.

I thought you were saying Bush had divided the country and that's why you would vote against him. I've heard this "Bush the Great Divider" spin before and I never really heard it backed up very well.

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Post by schraderrl »

sbheg wrote:I have no problem with Fees for our Parks and public lands that are used by the public. I like the pit toilets
Oh no now you did it, you found my sore spot the word “FEES”
Fees bring change-restrictions
Fees change public land into federal land
National Public Land Day is 9/18/04
Try riding the ISDRA for free that day and see what happens

I tent camp also and when nature calls I take a walk a few blocks away from camp, dig a hole and plant one in the ground; no chemicals-no energy used to truck it out and no expense to the tax payers

When someone is into definitions I flash back to “it depends on what your definition of the word is-is” or whatever that Clinton spin defense was

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Post by sbheg »

airkuld wrote: I have never heard his name one time in this election, wow. I guess Nader must be getting all the fringe vote coverage attention.
Thats what happens when you have two parties in control.

airkuld wrote:I thought you were saying Bush had divided the country and that's why you would vote against him. I've heard this "Bush the Great Divider" spin before and I never really heard it backed up very well.
You are correct that I said using your words "Bush the Great Divider", but I will not indulge you with why I think that, it is so obvious to me. But if you want to sit and have a refreshment at the SSSS show with me, I’ll tell you why if you insist. I would rather hear dune stuff and when we will meet up for a ride.
sbheg

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Post by airkuld »

sbheg wrote:
airkuld wrote: I have never heard his name one time in this election, wow. I guess Nader must be getting all the fringe vote coverage attention.
Thats what happens when you have two parties in control.

airkuld wrote:I thought you were saying Bush had divided the country and that's why you would vote against him. I've heard this "Bush the Great Divider" spin before and I never really heard it backed up very well.
You are correct that I said using your words "Bush the Great Divider", but I will not indulge you with why I think that, it is so obvious to me. But if you want to sit and have a refreshment at the SSSS show with me, I’ll tell you why if you insist. I would rather hear dune stuff and when we will meet up for a ride.
sbheg
Are there really any mature democracy - based governments that have more than two parties with the lion's share of the power?

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Post by airkuld »

sbheg wrote:
airkuld wrote: I have never heard his name one time in this election, wow. I guess Nader must be getting all the fringe vote coverage attention.
Thats what happens when you have two parties in control.

airkuld wrote:I thought you were saying Bush had divided the country and that's why you would vote against him. I've heard this "Bush the Great Divider" spin before and I never really heard it backed up very well.
You are correct that I said using your words "Bush the Great Divider", but I will not indulge you with why I think that, it is so obvious to me. But if you want to sit and have a refreshment at the SSSS show with me, I’ll tell you why if you insist. I would rather hear dune stuff and when we will meet up for a ride.
sbheg
Unfortunately, I'm usually on the move at the SSSS, try to hit all the booths and get out of there. I always hit the ASA booth on the way out to stock up on stickers and t-shirts though.

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Post by sbheg »

schraderrl wrote: Oh no now you did it, you found my sore spot the word “FEES”
Fees bring change-restrictions
Fees change public land into federal land
National Public Land Day is 9/18/04
Try riding the ISDRA for free that day and see what happens
Public lands are either owned by the State or the Feds, Fees do not turn public lands into federal land it was already federal or state owned!

I can ride every single day at ISDRA for free if I leave my tow vehicle and trailer off public lands that require a permit to camp. I see hundreds of cheap campers camping on the other side of the canal and using the bridges to get into ISDRA to ride. Camp there Bob, won't cost you a dime and you can dig all the holes you want.

sbheg

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Post by schraderrl »

sbheg wrote:I see hundreds of cheap campers camping on the other side of the canal and using the bridges to get into ISDRA to ride. Camp there Bob, won't cost you a dime and you can dig all the holes you want.
You call me cheap I call myself conservative
That’s where I use to camp just south of 78 and west of the canal
Now that is in the “buffer zone” fee area
That’s the problem with restricted land it grows like cancer


Yes public and federal land are both federal land but they are different legally
You’re the one into definitions, look it up
photo of canal camp year 2000
Image
Note the army shovel on right side of gas cans by the tailgate of my truck


As a matter of fact that is why at the last minute the BLM included Mammoth Wash in the fee program to make sure no one could ride in for free
That is also why the BLM closed Rice Valley sand dunes just before they started the ISDRA fees to make sure people had no alternative free sand areas
As to add insult the Riverside BLM claimed it was closing Rice Valley because of “under usage” but I think we know the real reason
Its to close public land and open recreational reservations
The old squeeze play to force more control and restrictions
Another problem with fees is they lead too specialized sport areas.
Not the old “land of many uses” anymore but now it’s the; land of many fees

As for cheap
I have been buying a Golden Eagle Passport (federal) and a California OHV Park Pass (state) for years and I don’t want to contribute anymore than is necessary to what I consider is an environmental extortion tax

Sbheg, I think the BLM would like you in their TRT program
You have that tone in your words, that outlook on fees they relate to
And then you can ride for free

****************************
Schrader’s comment for the day; 9/10/2004 10:49 AM
I have gone out of my way to avoid CBS ever since the 1975 “The Guns of Autumn” program was televised
My life long sports of shooting and off-roading have many things in common including the same liberal opponents
On the news today I hear how part of Bush’s National Guard history may have been forged in a negative light by CBS news
It sounds to me that one thing CBS and I have in common is our use of MS-WORD
Like I said the great equalizer is the computer and now just about everybody has one

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Post by FunRunner »

Could Kerry have Prevented 9-11?
John Kerry voted for the war; then he said the President misled Americans; that the Pres should have "known" just because he is the "man." Kerry has since made intelligence failures in the war on terror a major theme of his campaign.
With all the bluster by Kerry, would a legitimate question be to ask whether Kerry himself could have prevented 9-11, for he had documentation on his desk more compelling than Bush's vague PDB (Presidential Daily Briefing). Before 9-11, there was an investigation of security at Logan International from where the planes on 9-11 left. That investigation, which FAA special agent Brian Sullivan helped set up, demonstrated that on 9 of 10 tries a crew got knives and other weapons through security checkpoints, including the very ones the 9-11 hijackers would later pass through. The next day, Sullivan fired off a two page letter to Senator Kerry documenting the ststemic failures uncovered.
"With the concept of jihad," he asked Kerry, "do you think it would be difficult for a determined terrorist to get on a plane and destroy himself and all other passengers? Think what the result might be of a coordinated attack which took down several domestic flights on the same day. With our current screening, this is more than possible. It is almost likely."
Another former FAA agent, Steve Elson, who also helped set up the Logan investigation, says he told a Kerry staffer: "What would the Senator say if a large plane with holiday travelers took off from Logan at Thanksgiving for somewhere in California and went-boom-spattering bodies all over the landscape at a couple of hundred knots?"
According to a NY Post report, Sullivan followed up by having the undercover tape hand-delivered to Kerry's office. Yet Kerry did not pursue the matter excet to forward the tape to the Department of Transportations's Office of Inspector General, which Sullivan had warned would be a bureaucratic dead end.
Kerry has boasted in campaign ads the he "sounded the alarm on terrorism years before 9-11." Yet just four months before that fateful day he was presented with hard evidence of serious security lapses at Logan International along with specific warnings that terrorists cold exploit them and did essentially nothing about it.
Opinion. This shows Kerry's aloofness and lack of leadership to take the right steps when presented with hard evidence. Yet he can say the "President should have known; after all, because he is the president."
this is my opinion only and not necessarily that of anyone else who is a member of the ASA, nor is it approved by the ASA.

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Note: this material is not official ASA opinion or presentation; it is merely an article that I copied from to show that what Senator Kerry says, is not reflected in his poor record.

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Post by Poiks »

FunRunner wrote:Could Kerry have Prevented 9-11?
Could he, as president? Sure. Order a strip-search all Arab nationals and deport all with expired Visas. But would he (or anyone else) have prevented it? No.

I'd like to see some of Kerry's quotes before I judge them.

I did see quotes from Cheney:
It's absolutely essential that eight weeks from today, on Nov. 2, we make the right choice, because if we make the wrong choice then the danger is that we'll get hit again and we'll be hit in a way that will be devastating from the standpoint of the United States.
A couple of days later:
I did not say if Kerry is elected, we will be hit by a terrorist attack. Whoever is elected president has to anticipate more attacks.
How could you guys support this guy?

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Post by schraderrl »

I think what the VP was saying is;
When we get hit again whom do you want as president
I see the word “then” as referring to Election Day

Caution chumming ahead

Its not like he said
*Vote for Bush or die

*This line is chum
I predict it will be cut, pasted, quoted and posted again
Just let me use a liberal amount of line here
OK let me set the cruse control and kick back a few and we’ll see what we get

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Post by schraderrl »

Thank you Quad Commander for the BUSH and JONES stickers
I owe you a few cold ones
Image

9/12/2004 10:35 AM
Dense packing breeds the Great Liberal Society
I’ve noticed over the years than when population densities increase so does the percentage of democrats
LA’s South Bay was such a nice place in the fifties and sixties
We had Lions Drag Strip and Winchester Trap and Skeet range that were just south of the 405
There was Ascot Race Track just north of the 405
We had great motorcycle shows in downtown LA and there were the Great Western Gun Shows
All gone because of a flood of liberal change
Now we get Performing Arts centers
In Manhattan Beach as of 12-18-02 when you pull a building permit you are also required to pay a 1% fee to the Public Arts Trust Fund

Another place where you can see this change in progress is Orange County
The wake up call was when B-1 Bob Dornan lost to the democrats in what use to be the bastion of the GOP
I predict the gun and off-road shows will be pushed out of Orange County in the near future

9/12/2004 1:53 PM
I’m noticing that the ones who feel: “fees are a necessary evil” and “if you want to play you have to pay” are mostly the same people that admit to voting for democrats in the past (and future?)
That’s no surprise and their denial of being a liberal comes with their territory and is probably the reason for their vehement dislike towards me every time I try to point this out

Some people here not only admit voting for democrats, they’re proud of it and are the same ones who would like to see political discussions removed from the ASA bulletin board

For me free access to public land and the freedom to ride and shoot on public land is the only issue because that is where I spend my free time with my family
9/15/2004 10:14 AM
C(see)BS should have used Microsoft F (forger)

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Post by FunRunner »

FONTANA HERALD NEWS

U.S. Senate candidate Jones visits local area

By ALEJANDRO CANO



Close to 400 Republicans gathered at Etiwanda Gardens in Rancho Cucamonga last Friday to support U.S. Senate candidate Bill Jones at the annual Inland Valley Republican dinner.

Jones, a former California secretary of state who is attempting to unseat Democratic Sen. Barbara Boxer in the Nov. 2 election, gave a 10-minute speech to supporters to reassure them of his commitment to victory.

He talked about his plans to help reduce California's budget deficit and asked his supporters to vote no on Proposition 66, a ballot measure that would revise California's Three Strikes Law if passed.

"You are here today because you care about your children's future. You are here because you want their generation to be better than ours," said Jones. "If Prop. 66 passes, our families will not be safe. Criminals deserve to be in jail. We have the right to protect our families, and the Three Strikes Law is the only way we can be safe."

Jones said he has a six-point plan to bring down California's deficit. One of the points is to reduce regulations in order to free the creative spirit of entrepreneurs and small businesses.

Jones also believes in providing a stable and significantly-simplified tax structure.


"Businesses and families cannot invest for the long term if the tax code is subject to constant change," said Jones. "We need a tax system that is simple and that encourages investment for jobs creation, and not investment for tax avoidance as we have now."

Another of Jones' ideas is the need to rein in out-of-control tort costs. Jones believes that business owners should not have to worry about losing money due to legal actions against them, but instead they should be able to concentrate on making plans for the future.

"Tort reform must include work at the federal level, and I will work with the Senate leadership to reign in unjustified lawsuit awards," said Jones.

In addition, Jones said that California needs to reinvigorate vocational schools, since not every child has the desire to go to college.

"Our schools must do a better job of preparing children for good-paying jobs after they graduate," said Jones.

His opponent, Boxer, has previously said that she also has plans to boost California's economy. She wants the Senate to enact the Invest in the USA Act, which she said would encourage companies to bring overseas profits into America to create 600,000 new jobs and stimulate economic growth.

A TOP PRIORITY, according to Jones, is to put an end to the offshore oil drilling off California's coasts.

To do that, he would buy out the 36 undeveloped leases off the coast of Southern California as has been done in Florida. In addition, Jones intends to reduce reliance on imported oil and gas in order to ensure lasting protection.

In 1987, Boxer introduced a bill that would have prohibited new coastal oil drilling within 200 miles of the California coast, but it died before reaching the House floor for a vote. Three years later, Boxer reintroduced the bill that would prohibit new coastal oil drilling, but it also died on the House Committee without receiving a vote.

According to Jones, Boxer hasn't had leadership on the issue and hasn't been able to receive bipartisan support to get the necessary votes to end coastal oil drilling in California.

"Boxer's approach has been temporary delays, calls for studies, and resolutions and letters, with no force of law," said Jones. "No permanent bans have ever been imposed, and our coast remains vulnerable should the nation once again experience oil embargoes or increasing oil prices."

RECENTLY, Boxer has been using the ban on assault weapons issue against Jones, contending that he never did anything to stop the sale of those weapons because he has received money from the gun lobby.

However, Jones argued that he supported extending the now-dead ban on assault weapons and that, contrary to Boxer, he goes after the criminals.

"I supported extending the ban against assault weapons, but that's gone, it's passed," said Jones. "With the Three Strikes Law, we have reduced crime by 46 percent in California, so while my opponent goes after the guns, I go after the criminals, and I will continue to do that once I'm in Washington."

The 10-year-old ban expired on Sep. 13, giving gun manufacturers the green light to make thousands of military rifles for sale.

According to some recent polls, Boxer is leading both Jones and Libertarian Jim Gray in the Senate race.

"I will continue with my campaign and I'm sure I will win," said Jones, who has been endorsed by Governor Arnold Schwarzenegger.

Lois Godfrey
State Volunteer Chairman
Bill Jones for US Senate
phone: 714-773-5552
e-mail: itslois@earthlink.net

to volunteer sign up on our website at....
http://www.jonesforcalifornia.com

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Bill Jones News

Post by FunRunner »

Subject: Bill Jones Responds to Boxer's First Television Ad


REGION, COUNTY AREA AND COALITION CHAIRS:
I hope that all of you have signed up for the Jones Newsletter....if you haven't please go to the website and sign up. I don't want any of you to miss what Bill has to say but I also don't want to plug up your e-mail with duplicate e-mails.

Bill's latest newsletter has some great items for Letters to the Editor. I keep hearing that people don't know Bill and that he isn't anywhere to be found in California....that is not true. He is traveling the state, delivering speeches, taking positions on issues, raising money and fighting for California but the newspapers are too busy with the Presidential race, Governor Schwarzenegger and Iraq to give the U. S. Senate race any space so we, the Jones Team, have to fill the void. We need to share the newsletter, position papers, text of speeches and any news articles that are printed in this state with our friends, family, neighbors, children, grandchildren. If the newspapers won't do it Team Jones will. Let's get aggressive.

Bill Jones Responds to Boxer's First Television Ad

Republican Senate nominee Bill Jones released the following statement on the release of Barbara Boxer's first television ad of the general election.

"Barbara Boxer's first television ad of the 2004 campaign shows yet again that she is attempting to deflect attention away from a record that has stifled economic growth in our state and has contributed to driving jobs overseas.

She does not support or understand the economic needs and life aspirations of average Californians. When Boxer arrived in California, our state and leaders aggressively supported building an infrastructure including transportation, water and education system that was the envy of our nation and the world. Since Barbara Boxer has been in Congress, she has consistently voted for special interests and fought against building and supporting our infrastructure that would create additional high paying jobs. The facts are that Boxer has voted for higher taxes that drive businesses out of our state and nation. She has favored trial lawyers who sue doctors and health care providers right out of business."

TEXT OF BOXER AD: "We moved to California in 1965 because we knew it was the best place to raise our family, and it still is. But now families are being squeezed. Health care costs are going up, but wages aren't. College is out of reach. People need help."

TRUTH: If Boxer has a complaint that "families are being squeezed," she need look no farther than her own 22 year voting record in the Senate. Boxer has voted repeatedly throughout her career for tax hikes and against tax cuts for working California families. When Congress and the President supported important tax relief, Boxer voted to reduce the size of the cuts, and to raise taxes in other areas.

- She was one of 38 Senators who voted against the Bush Tax cut bill in 2001. 12.4 million Californians will have lower tax bills this year. 3.1 million business taxpayers can use the savings to invest in new equipment, hire workers or increase pay. 11 million more benefit from the new 10-percent bracket. 3.8 million married couples in California will get tax relief and 3.8 million California married couples and single parents gain from the $600-$1000 child tax credit increase.

- Boxer voted repeatedly against the marriage tax cut, child tax credit increase and against elimination of the estate tax. In contrast, California's senior and more moderate Senator Dianne Feinstein voted for tax relief, and spoke forcefully for the benefits of marriage and estate tax relief.

- Boxer voted to raise the percentage of taxable Social Security from 50%-85%, and later voted against cutting it from 85%-50%.

- She also voted against gas tax relief time and time again. Her answer to growing demand for fuel is more investigations and more lawsuits but no power plants. Her terrible record of taxpayer protection has earned a lifetime "F" grade from the National Taxpayers Union, and a 22% Lifetime score from the U.S. Chamber of Commerce.

TEXT OF BOXER AD: "Health care costs are going up, but wages aren't."

TRUTH: Rising health care litigation costs mean fewer health care professionals can afford insurance, and communities are having trouble attracting and maintaining doctors. At the bottom line, patient care suffers. Boxer has voted against medical liability reform and against caps in damage awards, while raking in campaign cash from America's top trial law firms and attorneys, who make millions suing doctors out of business.

One aspect of the rising cost of health care unmentioned by Barbara Boxer is the cost of insurance and litigation driven by powerful and predatory trial law firms who are longstanding major campaign contributors to Boxer and other Democrats.

Boxer voted against the $40 billion per year prescription drug benefit bill passed last year, which Senator Feinstein supported and praised. Boxer has repeatedly voted against medical liability reform, including malpractice caps, and against liability protection for volunteer doctors in under-served communities.

One area of the economy in which Boxer has made sure wages go up concerns her own Senate pay. Five separate times while a Senator, Boxer has had the chance to vote to control Congressional salary, and each time hers was a vote to increase her own pay. Conversely, she has voted at least six times against final passage of pay raises for our men and women in uniform.

TEXT OF BOXER AD: "I want to make health insurance tax deductible. Tuition: deductible."

TRUTH: Boxer's election-year attempt to appear taxpayer friendly by allowing the first $2,000 of health insurance premiums to be fully deductible, has sat in a Senate committee for over a year and a half without ever being voted on or moved through Congress. Boxer cast the deciding vote against providing $70 billion over 10 years for tax credits to small business to purchase health insurance, and to make health insurance fully deductible. And she voted against allowing the self-employed to deduct 100 percent of health insurance costs.

Boxer was one of just 37 senators to vote against allowing families to set aside up to $2,000 a year per child in a tax-free educational savings account. Dianne Feinstein voted for the proposal. And she was one of only 36 Senators voting against the "A+ Education Savings Accounts" bill to increase from $500 to $2,000 the annual contribution limit for education expenses to include expenses for grades K – 12, which passed in 1998 with Senator Feinstein voting FOR the bill.

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Post by Glamisman »

G. W. Bush and John Kerry somehow ended up at the same barbershop. As they sat there, each being worked on by a different barber, not a word was spoken. The barbers were even afraid to start a conversation, for fear it would turn to politics.

As the barbers finished their shaves, the one who had Kerry in his chair
reached for the after-shave. Kerry was quick to stop him saying, "No
thanks, my wife Theresa will smell that and think I've been in a
whorehouse."

The second barber turned to Bush and said, "How about you?"

Bush replied, "Go ahead, my wife doesn't know what the inside of a
whorehouse smells like."

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Post by LoBuck »

:lol: :lol:
Glenn Montgomery - KE7BTP
'79 CJ5
http://www.YumaDuners.com - LoBuck's Web Page
DAC ISDRA Sub Group Member - AZ OHV Rep BLM ISDRA DSG webpage

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The Bronzed Star Award

Post by FunRunner »

Bronzed Star Award

John Kerry has positioned himself once again for the latest award for which he is purportedly being considered.
Last edited by FunRunner on Thu Sep 30, 2004 9:53 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Post by AlxCook »

schraderrl wrote:
sbheg wrote:I see hundreds of cheap campers camping on the other side of the canal and using the bridges to get into ISDRA to ride. Camp there Bob, won't cost you a dime and you can dig all the holes you want.
You call me cheap I call myself conservative
That’s where I use to camp just south of 78 and west of the canal
Now that is in the “buffer zone” fee area
That’s the problem with restricted land it grows like cancer


Yes public and federal land are both federal land but they are different legally
You’re the one into definitions, look it up
photo of canal camp year 2000
Image
Note the army shovel on right side of gas cans by the tailgate of my truck

Geeze, I finally read this thread, only to find out people think I am cheap. I have been camping near that spot for almost 10 years, and have had a pass every trip since they started charging. And guess what, they have been patroling that area, checking for passes for all of last season......................seems to me the RAMP hasn't been implemented, so technically it isn't in the buffer zone as yet??? At least that is how I read it!
Alex

Member of DUNERs, ASA, CORVA, SDORC, BRC, and the human race

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Post by FunRunner »

For Immediate Release
September 29, 2004
Joanne Monaco
Christine Ribeiro Rubin
714/438-1114


Republican Senate Candidate Bill Jones Issued the Following Statement:

Today I am announcing that I have accepted three statewide debates - against my opponent Barbara Boxer - to be held before Election Day.

The debate sponsors include the California Broadcasters Association; the Commonwealth Club of California; and a group of ABC affiliate stations throughout California, with the debate being held at KFSN-TV in Fresno.

Senator Boxer has sent me a letter that stated that, "with such clear differences between us, I believe that debates will be a good opportunity for California voters to better understand the clear choice that they have this election." I could not agree more.

My campaign has been in communication with the Boxer campaign in an attempt to arrange for these three debates to take place. Today, I call on Senator Boxer to step up to the plate and accept these opportunities and let the people decide who is most fit to represent them in the United States Senate.



Lois Godfrey
State Volunteer Chairman
Bill Jones for US Senate

PS: if anyone has any contact with any of the Internet "Blogs" please get this info out to them, so it becomes an issue Boxer cannot ignore...Roger

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Post by FunRunner »

More on Bill Jones

Immediate Release
September 29, 2004
Joanne Monaco
Christine Ribeiro Rubin
714/438-1114


Jones Discusses Freedom Pay Proposal
Highlights Boxer's Weak Record on National Defense and Homeland Security

(Fresno, CA) - Speaking at the Fresno Legion of Valor Museum, Senate candidate Bill Jones today released his policy proposal "Freedom Pay" designed to assist National Guard and Reserve troops with financial hardship when they are called to active duty. He highlighted Barbara Boxer's more than two decade record of opposing national and homeland defense priorities.

"We need to consider the needs of the families of our citizen soldiers in the National Guard and in the Reserves," said Jones. "I earlier proposed a Freedom Pay program to provide tax credits to employers who elect to maintain the pay and benefits level for their employees who are called to duty. The members of our Armed Forces need this type of program to ensure their loved ones are taken care of at home while they are overseas, but we must never neglect - as Boxer has done repeatedly - the core requirements for them to do their jobs so decisively," concluded Jones.

"We are at a cross roads in this nation," said Jones. "This nation and the world are faced with a new form of threats to our security, in the form of terror and in the form of rogue nations like North Korea who simply do not play by the rules of a civilized world."

"Throughout my years in public service, I have made personal security the most important issue on my legislative agenda," said Jones. "Our economy cannot prosper if our streets and borders are not safe. Our communities do not grow if people live in fear. Our children cannot learn if safety, not education is their primary concern. Government's first duty to its citizens is public safety, and all other functions cannot succeed if we do not ensure safety first."

"The voting public knows where I stand," said Jones. "And it is in stark contrast to the voting history of my opponent, Barbara Boxer."

"In her 22 years in Congress, Boxer has repeatedly voted against defense appropriations, including funds to support our troops, development of defense systems that have provided tens of thousands of jobs to Californians, and development of the weapons systems that have enabled our troops to perform so well with minimal combat casualties," said Jones.

"In the Senate, she voted to cut the Foreign Intelligence Program and Tactical Intelligence-related programs by $400 million," said Jones. "And she voted twice to reveal to the world the amount of money the U.S. spends on intelligence."

"The people of this state and this nation want effective leadership to keep them safe. Boxer has failed to live up to this standard," said Jones. "She has repeatedly failed to act on the critical measures needed to safeguard our national security."

-30-


Freedom Pay Program
Protecting the Financial Security of the People Protecting America's Freedom

Members of the military reserves and the California National Guard are often paid substantially less when called to active duty than they are paid at their regular full-time civilian jobs.

To ensure that the men and women who risk their personal security in defense of our nation are not required to sacrifice their financial security as well, the "Freedom Pay" program would encourage all employers to pay their employees the difference between military pay and the salary they would otherwise receive from their civilian employment and to continue the benefits on which their families depend.

Employer Participation

* Employers would pay their employees the difference between their civilian pay and the pay they will receive on active duty with the National Guard or U.S. Armed Services

* Employers would be reimbursed through a federal tax credit equal to 100% of the pay differential provided to the employee.


Duration of Program

* When approved, the program would be effective for one year and would be automatically extended if warranted by national security interests.


State of California Participation

* When called to active duty in the military, employees of the State of California are currently eligible to receive income protection for up to 220 days of service. This program encourages the adoption of similar programs by all federal, state, and local government employers.

Lois Godfrey
State Volunteer Chairman
Bill Jones for US Senate

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Post by Sue Davies Laird »

schraderrl wrote:Thank you Quad Commander for the BUSH and JONES stickers
I owe you a few cold ones
Image
Someone Tore off my STICKER on Monday here at work in the parking garage.. I either offended someone :roll: or they needed one for themselves :D IN either case, I took a stack I brought back from the SSSS and put several ON my car ( a YELLOW Beetle) and placed several under the hatchback so anyone removing the sticker on the back would see I had several to replace it with. So, I'm driving to work on Tuesday am and some old man gives me a honk and a big THUMBS up :D :D kinda made up for my STOLEN Sticker....... :D

Oh, and they left the Bill Jones sticker in Place :D :shock:
Sue~

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Post by FunRunner »

The first debate is over; I don't think the arena changed much; John Kerry doesn't have anything to lose and showed it with a poised performance. Bush may not have been at his best and at times seemed weary of all the defense of his positions. The redundancy of the barrage of "no weapons of mass destruction" and "Sadam was not an immediate threat" and "while we were taking care of Sadam, bin Laden remains at large" etc. may have worn on the President. I hope the public recognizes that the President is vulnerable like all of us, and needs our support, rather than doubt and critique of his every move.

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Post by Glamisman »

There were a few things that President Bush cleared up in the debate tonite... the first is that he is the "President of the United States"... he is not elected by world opinion nor is he there to serve at the pleasure or displeasure of the rest of the world i.e.U.N.
America First is what I understood.

The second point was no draft. I have seen the ads on T.V. attempting to scare the youth of the country into voting anti-Bush. I guess the democrats figured that scaring the elderly works (Social Security and Mediscare) it should work for the youth also.

As far as what the future holds for the middle east everyone seems to forget that one of our allies - at least when is serves their purpose - is Israel. Israel is not going to let Iran go nuclear. They will let the Iranians get about 90% finished then send in an air strike and turn the facilities into rubble. They are not going to ask for permission from anyone they are just going to do it. Of course the rest of the world is going to publicly condemn them for doing it, but I bet that behind closed doors there will be a nod, a wink and a smile ... this is the nature of politics.

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Post by FunRunner »

Glamisman
There were a few things that President Bush cleared up in the debate tonite.
good points; I think another point is that Kerry claims now that "this is the wrong war at the wrong time" is just his latest view, that conflicts with his past statements, but it is a popular theme with his constituents currently.

Something to look at is that this is more likely, "the right war at this time," as witnessed by all the terrorist and ex-Saddam supporters who have joined the fight there; they do not want a change in the government; they do not want democracy; they are dying there for their unholy cause, that they choose to call a holy calling. It is even more evident that it is imperative we win in Iraq and democracy be established to whatever extent possible.

Without getting into a long drawn-out dissertation on the influence this would have or could have, I should say on the region, maybe it is suffice to say that this could well be our best chance of ending nuclear proliferation in Iran by the reigning mullahs. If Iranians see a stabilization in Iraq, and it points to a better life for the citizens of Iraq, maybe the throngs of revolution will start to rise against the mullahs, who currently hold power in Iran.

It certainly hasn't proven effective to have sanctions in place against people like Iraq and N. Korea. They only make agreements, which they have no intention of keeping, but which seem to appease the powers in Europe, where the tool of appeasement is the main strategy.

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Post by sbheg »

http://msnbc.msn.com/id/6150258/
Ciro Scotti wrote:Republicrat vs. Democan
Get past the bluster and bile, and the two products of privilege who each want to be the next President aren't all that different. How sad By Ciro Scotti

Updated: 12:00 a.m. ET Oct. 1, 2004Last night was Debate Night USA. Perhaps you tuned in. But what did America really see after months of endless campaigning, hundreds of millions of dollars lavished on attack ads, and enough cheap talk [as my mama used to say] to drive any sane citizen off the nearest bridge?


Answer: Two flawed candidates -- George Walker Bush and John Forbes Kerry -- both of the same generation and privileged class, but who differ largely in style. Two representatives of the major-party duopoly that controls the debates, the political process, and the country.

You don't agree? Let's look at the Tale of the Presidential Tape.

Bush is 58. Kerry is 61.

Both went to New England prep schools [Bush to Andover, from which both his father and Kerry's father graduated. Kerry to St. Paul's].

Both went to the same college [Yale].

Both joined the same secret society [Skull & Bones].

Both served in the military. Bush was an officer in the Air National Guard [a good way to avoid Vietnam combat]. Kerry was an officer in the U.S. Navy [usually a safer alternative than the Army in those days].

Kerry saw combat and became an antiwar activist after his discharge. Bush never served overseas, disengaged from the Guard after being trained as a pilot, and worked on the political campaign of a Bush family friend.

Bush went to grad school [Harvard MBA]. Kerry went to law school [Boston College].

Bush, bankrolled with family money, pursued a largely unsuccessful career as an independent oilman. Then, again through family connections, he became a part-owner of the Texas Rangers baseball team. Kerry became a prosecutor.

Both ran for Congress and were defeated. Bush was eventually elected governor of Texas, then President. Kerry was eventually elected Lt. Governor of Massachusetts, then U.S. senator.

Both married and had two daughters. Kerry later had his marriage annulled and remarried.

Bush was an Episcopalian, then a Presbyterian, and finally a Methodist [talk about flip-floppers]. Kerry is a Roman Catholic. Bush wears his religion on his sleeve. Kerry is more circumspect about his beliefs.

Both are connected to political dynasties [Bush to the Bush Dynasty of his grandfather, Senator Prescott Bush, and his father, former President George H.W. Bush; Kerry to the Kennedy Dynasty, although his own ancestors include John Winthrop, the first governor of Massachusetts, and a great-great-grandfather who was a U.S. senator].

Bush runs, bikes, and clears brush. Kerry skis, bikes, and windsurfs. Both hunt [at least for the cameras].

Both are multimillionaires.

Both are Washington insiders [Bush settled scores for his father from the White House; Kerry has been in the Senate for almost 20 years].

Both are the highly marketed and focus-group-targeted products of two competing political brands owned by Dems Inc. and GOP Inc. Corporate America has enormous equity stakes in both outfits.

Neither, despite all the spin, is a regular guy.

In fact, the only Presidential candidate with a national following who wasn't born with a silver microphone in his mouth is Ralph Nader. Of course, Nader wasn't allowed to participate in the debates, even though his candidacy in 2000 probably determined the outcome of the election.

That's because the Commission on Presidential Debates is a jointly owned subsidiary of the Democratic and Republican parties, and squabble as they may, the last thing they want is to share their lucrative business with some political startup. Why, fresh ideas might be injected into the debate, and who knows where that would lead?

Copyright © 2004 The McGraw-Hill Companies Inc. All rights reserved.
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Post by sbheg »

http://abcnews.go.com/wire/Politics/ap20041001_648.html
3 Polls Show Kerry Won Debate Over Bush
President Bush, John Kerry Hit Campaign Trail Following Debate; 3 Polls Show Kerry Edging Bush

The Associated Press

CORAL GABLES, Fla. Oct. 1, 2004 — President Bush and Sen. John Kerry rushed back to the campaign trail Friday to try to convince voters they had won the debate over foreign policy and to renew the argument over whether going to war in Iraq had made the nation safer.
Three post-debate polls suggested voters who watched the policy-driven confrontation Thursday night were impressed by Kerry. Most of those surveyed said he did better than Bush.

Kerry's running mate, Sen. John Edwards, said Friday he told Kerry after the debate "I think people saw the next commander in chief," and he criticized Bush for failing to acknowledge problems in Iraq. "You can't fix a problem if you're not willing to admit that mistakes have been made and that you have a problem," he told ABC's "Good Morning America."

Bush, however, believed he had effectively spelled out the strategy and shown the resolve with which he is fighting the war on terror, White House communications director Dan Bartlett said. "I think he spoke from the heart, spoke with strength about the necessity for our country to fight the terrorists over there so we don't have to face them here at home," Bartlett told ABC. "He had a good time last night."

Sen. John McCain, the Arizona Republican who informally advised Bush on how to debate his friend and Senate colleague, told reporters in Miami on Friday that the debate was probably Kerry's "brightest moment" in the last six weeks. "He presented himself well, John did," McCain said. "Kerry came out slugging."

Kerry's campaign prepared a TV ad that featured newspaper headlines from Friday praising the Democrat's performance. The Democratic National Committee was rolling out a Web video showing clips of Bush appearing frustrated at the debate.

When Kerry leveled some of his charges, Bush appeared irritated and scowled at times and, at other moments, glanced away in apparent disgust. Kerry often took notes when the president spoke. The television networks offered a split screen to viewers so they could see both men at the same time and watch their reactions.

Bush knew he would be on camera during the entire debate and was aware that the networks had not agreed to show only the candidate who was speaking, Bush campaign spokeswoman Nicolle Devenish said. Regarding Bush's facial reactions, Devenish said: "The president reacted honestly. It showed the president really believes in his convictions."

From the first question, Kerry went on the offensive, accusing Bush of leaving U.S. alliances around the world "in shatters" and later calling Iraq "this incredible mess." Bush said Kerry had voted to authorize the war he now criticizes. "That's not how a commander in chief acts," Bush said.

Less than five weeks before the election, Iraq dominated the debate on a day when a string of bombs killed 35 children and wounded scores of others in western Baghdad. Overall, more than 1,000 U.S. soldiers have died in Iraq.

Kerry summed up Bush's strategy for Iraq as "more of the same" and added: "This president has made, I regret to say, a colossal error of judgment. And judgment is what we look for in the president of the United States of America."

Bush acknowledged that not every American agrees with the decisions he's made. "But people know where I stand," Bush said, suggesting they don't know where Kerry stands. "People out there listening know what I believe."

From Florida, Bush was heading out Friday to rallies in Pennsylvania and New Hampshire, two key battleground states. Kerry was spending the day campaigning in Florida, where the presidential race was decided four years ago.

In Thursday night's encounter at the University of Miami, Bush and Kerry drew heavily on oft-repeated lines from their campaign speeches but they faced each other directly across the same stage for the first time.

On Iraq, Bush criticized Kerry for saying it was the wrong war at the wrong time in the wrong place. "What message does that send to our troops?" the president said. "Not a message a commander in chief gives."

Repeating a line he has used countless times to show his opponent is inconsistent, Bush tweaked Kerry for saying he voted for an $87 billion spending bill for Iraq and Afghanistan before he voted against it.

Kerry shot back, "Well, you know, when I talked bout the $87 billion, I made a mistake in how I talk about the war. But the president made a mistake in invading Iraq. Which is worse?"

Trying to persuade voters that he is tough enough to be commander in chief, Kerry said, "I believe in being strong and resolute and determined. And I will hunt down and kill the terrorists, wherever they are." He said that Bush, in invading Iraq, lost sight of the goal of capturing terrorist leader Osama bin Laden.

But Bush insisted that "the world is safer without Saddam Hussein." He called Iraq "a central part in the war on terror" and said 75 percent of bin Laden's leadership had been brought to justice.

Trying to turn Kerry's criticism against him, Bush said, "I understand what it means to be the commander in chief. And if I were to ever say, 'This is the wrong war at the wrong time at the wrong place,' the troops would wonder, 'How can I follow this guy?'"

To Kerry's contention that he could summon broader international support for the war, Bush said, "They're not going to follow someone whose core convictions keep changing because of politics."

While Iraq was the dominant issue in the debate, there were notable differences on North Korea and Iran, two nations suspected of pursuing nuclear weapons programs. Kerry urged that the United States hold direct bilateral talks with North Korea, but Bush called Kerry's proposal "a big mistake" that would crush multinational talks and remove pressure from China on North Korea. Kerry said North Korea has amassed more nuclear weapons during Bush's administration.

On Iran, Kerry said the United States should have worked with allies like France, Germany and Britain to impose sanctions if Tehran refused to give up its nuclear program.
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